Who's Law are they using?

[Davejay656 0]

Hi folks

just an update with a depressing outcome and a really good question.

I have finally calmed down enough to update you. I've been quite upset since Monday. Seems like we need a good lawyer!

My wife Trish and I, she's the US citizen, had our Immigrant Visa interview this week. The interview went well enough, until the official got to the police certificate and asked me to explain in my own words the arrests and convictions. Well, I hadn't prepared a statement, because I was told that juvenile records were not held against you. As a 16 year old I had been a Joyrider with 7 counts of car theft taken into consideration. He turned to Patricia and said "you are going to have to apply for a Waiver of the ground of ineligibility for your husband". I remember saying that this was when I was young and dumb, but I told him I couldn't remember the details. Well it was a long time ago, I am 50 now, and this happened when I was 16. I have another minor conviction for when I was 19.

So there's the update: our case is suspended pending my wife filing an application for a waiver of the ground of ineligibility.

Now here's my question:-

As far as AMERICAN LAW goes, can a person's juvenile record be held against him? At what age does a 'minor' become an adult? My American wife tells me that under American law, a person is a minor untill their 21st birthday. So when a U.S. Consular official looks at a police certificate that has some arrests/convictions for when I was 16 years old, then again at 19 years old, why would he say my wife needs to apply for a "Waiver of the ground of ineligibility" for my juvenile record?

British law says one is a minor only until 18. So I suppose the conviction at age 19 would count.

But WHO'S law are the immigration officials using? If they are using the Immigration and Nationality Act, then thats an American Law. Shouldn't that mean that crimes commited BEFORE a person's 21st birthday are not counted?

Does anyone have any comments? We really could use some of your knowledge and expertise. (before we get a lawyer, I mean)

Thanks for taking the time to read this

Dave

[Mr and Mrs Bird 0]

Hi Dave

The only answer I can give you is that I am about immigrate to usa with my 15 year old son. They told me that they didn't need to see a police record because he was minor And they ment under 18. I am not sure if this is a help for you.

But I mean that USCIS London website can help you. If you look under rules for inadmissibility.

I am through this too because I have been convicted for 13 years ago

Sweetie

[payxibka 10,045]

Hi Dave

The only answer I can give you is that I am about immigrate to usa with my 15 year old son. They told me that they didn't need to see a police record because he was minor And they ment under 18. I am not sure if this is a help for you.

But I mean that USCIS London website can help you. If you look under rules for inadmissibility.

I am through this too because I have been convicted for 13 years ago

Sweetie

Police records are required for places of residence from age 16

You become are considered an adult at age 18 not 21.

[Mr and Mrs Bird 0]

Ok sorry for my mistake.

I know he can obtain one when 16.

But they don't need a waiver if he became a crime under 18 I mean.

Isn't that correct?

Sweetie

[Davejay656 0]

Ok sorry for my mistake.

I know he can obtain one when 16.

But they don't need a waiver if he became a crime under 18 I mean.

Isn't that correct?

Sweetie

Thanks for your replies. I know they ask for the police cert form aged 16. BUT, in America a juvenile criminal record is closed or locked. NOBODY gets to see it. That's their own law, so I just wonder why they are allowed to see our juvenile stuff when they don't look at their own. That's my point, they are using AMERICAN LAW to judge us. Aren't they?

[brnidokiegurl 0]

juvinal records are not public information in Okla wouldnt think they could be used again you

[mybackpages 0]

IN some places in the US any arrest made at the age of 17 or older are handled as adult, not juvenile, cases.

[Kez/JWolf 6]

In the UK if your case was dealt with by a juvenile court then it does not appear on your police report... if your case was dealt with by a full adult court then it will appear on your police report and a wavier will be required...

It is not a case of who's laws they are judging you by it is a case of what appears on your police record...

Good Luck with the wavier..

Kez

[Davejay656 0]

In the UK if your case was dealt with by a juvenile court then it does not appear on your police report... if your case was dealt with by a full adult court then it will appear on your police report and a wavier will be required...

It is not a case of who's laws they are judging you by it is a case of what appears on your police record...

Good Luck with the wavier..

Kez

Hi Kez, and thanks for your reply and the good luck wish.

But I must say that you are incorrect, and here's why I say so: my police certificate clearly shows the arrest and conviction for car theft (7) counts, it also shows the date - I was 16. The embassy also wanted the court records to match the arrests/convictions on the police certificate. Well I obtained the court records (at a cost of £25 I might add) and they clearly say it was in the Juvenile Court. Anyway, I have an appointment with a lawyer on Tuesday 19th. I'll find out more then. Shame. I wanted to do this without solicitors. Once again, thanks for your comments. Dave.

[desert_fox 32]

My wife Trish and I, she's the US citizen, had our Immigrant Visa interview this week. The interview went well enough, until the official got to the police certificate and asked me to explain in my own words the arrests and convictions. Well, I hadn't prepared a statement, because I was told that juvenile records were not held against you. As a 16 year old I had been a Joyrider with 7 counts of car theft taken into consideration. He turned to Patricia and said "you are going to have to apply for a Waiver of the ground of ineligibility for your husband". I remember saying that this was when I was young and dumb, but I told him I couldn't remember the details. Well it was a long time ago, I am 50 now, and this happened when I was 16. I have another minor conviction for when I was 19.

So there's the update: our case is suspended pending my wife filing an application for a waiver of the ground of ineligibility.

Now here's my question:-

As far as AMERICAN LAW goes, can a person's juvenile record be held against him? At what age does a 'minor' become an adult? My American wife tells me that under American law, a person is a minor untill their 21st birthday. So when a U.S. Consular official looks at a police certificate that has some arrests/convictions for when I was 16 years old, then again at 19 years old, why would he say my wife needs to apply for a "Waiver of the ground of ineligibility" for my juvenile record?

British law says one is a minor only until 18. So I suppose the conviction at age 19 would count.

But WHO'S law are the immigration officials using? If they are using the Immigration and Nationality Act, then thats an American Law. Shouldn't that mean that crimes commited BEFORE a person's 21st birthday are not counted?

Does anyone have any comments? We really could use some of your knowledge and expertise. (before we get a lawyer, I mean)

Thanks for taking the time to read this

Dave

The Consulate can only use US law in determining elgibility for a visa. This is covered under the Immigration and Naturalization Act under title 8 of the US Code.

I dont know who told you that juvenile crimes cant be used against you. But the Act states quite clearly that any crime involving moral turpitude would disqualify you. There is an exception for commiting one crime if it was committed when you were under age 18.

Under US law you become an adult at age 18...cant drink, and cant get merried in some jurisdictions, but still, an adult. You can vote, enter into contracts, etc.

Good luck for whatever happens.

[misa 2]

Good luck with the lawyer. It sounds like they are using the conviction for inadmissability when you were 19 though...

[aussiewench 9]

I would hazard a guess that because of the arrest/conviction when you were 19 that the arrests/convictions from when you were 16 then came into play. Each on there own would possibly of meant no waiver. Together, waiver required.

I wish you the best with your waiver.

Lorelle

[zyggy 9]

This is what it says in the INA

(2) Criminal and related grounds.-

(A) Conviction of certain crimes.-

(i) In general.-Except as provided in clause (ii), any alien convicted of, or who admits having committed, or who admits committing acts which constitute the essential elements of-

(I) a crime involving moral turpitude (other than a purely political offense or an attempt or conspiracy to commit such a crime), or

(II) a violation of (or a conspiracy or attempt to violate) any law or regulation of a State, the United States, or a foreign country relating to a controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802)), is inadmissible.

(ii) Exception.-Clause (i)(I) shall not apply to an alien who committed only one crime if-

(I) the crime was committed when the alien was under 18 years of age, and the crime was committed (and the alien released from any confinement to a prison or correctional institution imposed for the crime) more than 5 years before the date of application for a visa or other documentation and the date of application for admission to the United States, or

(II) the maximum penalty possible for the crime of which the alien was convicted (or which the alien admits having committed or of which the acts that the alien admits having committed constituted the essential elements) did not exceed imprisonment for one year and, if the alien was convicted of such crime, the alien was not sentenced to a term of imprisonment in excess of 6 months (regardless of the extent to which the sentence was ultimately executed).

(B) Multiple criminal convictions.-Any alien convicted of 2 or more offenses (other than purely political offenses), regardless of whether the conviction was in a single trial or whether the offenses arose from a single scheme of misconduct and regardless of whether the offenses involved moral turpitude, for which the aggregate sentences to confinement were 5 years or more is inadmissible.

According to the above law, your husband is inadmissible due to his crimes and requires a waiver of inadmissiblity until a visa can be issued. The fact that he has multiple convicions involving CIMT, whether they were comitted as a minor or not, made him inadmissible. The only distinction between a crime committed as a minor or as an adult is from the above exception of only one CIMT... There is no distinction if there were multiple convictions.

It does not matter if the charge was waived, the record was cleared or sealed, or if the crime was pardoned. If there was a conviction involving a CIMT and it does not fit into one of the above exceptions, then a waiver is required.

Your rejections due to your crimes should have been expected... the good news is that London has a good record of approving waivers. Get your hardship letter and other evidence of your good conduct and submit the I-601 waiver as soon as you can... Check out the I-601 forum here and ask questions to make your first draft of a hardship letter... Then give that and your evidence of good conduct to an immigration attorney that specializes in waivers for a consultation on how to proceed..

Edited December 19, 2006 by zyggy

[rebeccajo 14]

This is a perfect example of why lawyers are needed to unravel things for laypeople.

Dave, I think I know where some of your confusion may lie. My husband (also from the UK) has explained to me, simplistically, that there is one 'law' in the UK. In the US, there are state laws as well as federal laws. This is why you have the definition of a minor being different from state to state, as well as a myriad of other differences including traffic law, divorce laws, DUI penalties, death penalties, etc. The states are 'sovereign' so to speak and as such you are subject to the laws of the state where you live or wherein a crime was committed.

Federal law on the other hand covers matters that affect the whole of the union - laws our representatives have deemed work well to best serve the entire nation. Immigration law is federal law.

So in short the answer to your question is - 'they' are using Federal immigration laws to determine what you must do to live in any State within the union.

As a side note, there is another poster to this community by the name of munchkins who is currently in the waiver process through London for her UK husband. His offenses were also more than 25 years ago and at a young age. You might wish to research her posts and make her acquaintance.

[Joey559 1]

I believe US law is more flexible than you're imagining. It depends on the type of crime, motive/lack of and other circumstances surronding the act - age isn't always a concrete factor. Car theft is a big deal - I believe 7 counts of it would be viewed as something left on your record here. I had a minor in possession at the age of 18 (YES I WAS HOLDING A BEER CAN AT A COLLEGE PARTY - SHOCKING) and our deal for admitting to drinking was $100 fine. For that it was stricken off public record but if we hadn't agreed then I imagine a simple minor in possession would still be on my record. So the 19 year old conviction will count and i believe that, under the age of 18 or not, the car thefts showing up on your record WILL require a waiver. Age is not always an excuse and I think the consulate has every right to question past car thefts. Thats a pretty big crime...

Good luck with the waiver - as mentioned by another post, London has a great record for waiver approval!