Israel, Alone

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

And don't try to excuse Israel's criminal behavior by saying "Well Israel is going after the militants, and they hide among civilians." Because almost EVERY SINGLE Israeli adult is either a member of the Army, a member of the Army reserve, or an Army veteran. So according to this same logic, then every town, every pizzaria, every disco in Israel is "fair" game, as they're full of active and reserve duty soldiers. I don't agree with attacking civilians in any case, but since you enthusiastically accept such behavior by Israel, by the same token, you have to accept such acts by Palestinians as well (that is, IF you're as impartial and even-handed as you want us to believe you are.)

Were the nineteen Israeli school kids who were killed outside a Tel-Aviv disco in June 2001 -

all aged between 15 and 18 - also members of the Army? Can you justify their murder as an

"act of resistance"?

Read it again, Mark, because you missed the point. (In fact, read the sentence right after what you bolded.)

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

ET -

Now you're just trying to play games.

Read the thread again. You brought up "resistance" after I had mentioned it to another who tried to characterize all Palestinian resistance as "terror," and you mocked it. Next, you remarked how you have no sympathy for people who "raise their children" to be suicide bombers. Then you went on to say how others had lost their land, yet didn't launch suicide missions, and how two wrongs don't make a right. In context, it was clear that you were characterizing Palestinian resistance as one of "sick missions" of suicide bombs.

So... my mention of Nazi Germany and its direct role in what has happened in Palestine is just too much for you to take ? Yet your hyperbole about Palestinians "teaching their children to be suicide bombers" is just fine. Oh the irony....

Anyway, now you realize how you came off, and you try to say, no that's not what you meant. Well then. How many Palestinians have "taught their children" to be suicide bombers ? I'd like to see some statistics on this. If you think it's the majority, then support your comment. If you now are now admitting that it must be a miniscule minority, if anyone at all, then why make such a remark in the first place ? If you didn't intend it to be a slam against the entire Palestinian people, then you should have qualified your words. But you didn't, nor did you make any reference to what you would consider "lawful" resistance.

For your information, Palestinian parents of suicide bombers almost always have no clue as to what their son or daughter is doing until it's all over. Why ? Because they'd try to stop them. And several who DID have a clue have been able to stop them. Do you really think Palestinian parents are some kind of alien monsters who don't love their children every bit as much as you do, who don't want them to be able to marry, have children, live long and happy lives ? If you really believe they could be so different than parents all over the world, then you're certainly a racist.

And you never mentioned anything about Israeli acts of terror, although in the line you selectively quoted from me, I was clearly talking about that. You took my words out of context, using a small snip to try to say I am portraying "sick missions of suicide bombers" who target crowds of innocent Israelis as "resistance."

So.... where is it that I've labeled an actual "act of terrorism" as lawful "resistance" ? Let's see that quote.

Unless you're trying to claim (as Israel often does) that attacks on its occupation soldiers, armed gangs of illegal settlers and other mechanisms of the occupuation could be considered "terror." In that case, both I and international law beg to differ -- under the Geneva Convention, they are certainly lawful. Also, suicide bombers are not necessarily terrorists, although some people (like you) tend to use the terms interchangeably. The Geneva Convention gives occupied peoples the *right to resist their occupiers* by *any* means at their disposal, and that includes suicide bombs.

By the way, do you even know when the last suicide bombing against Israeli civilians took place ? It's been quite a while. (Mark knows -- maybe he will help you out here.) Now, if you want to be knowledgeable on the issue, look up how many Palestinian civilians Israel has murdered since then, especially in the last 6 months. In fact, why don't you look up how many on each side have been killed, especially the number of children, over the last 6 years. Maybe then you'll be able to figure out which side is conducting the lion's share of

"terror." And if you really and truly "despise idiots who commit terror... no matter what ethnicity they are," well then where's your condemnation of Israeli terror ?

I am sure you didn't like being called a racist. But who the cap fit, he have to wear it. (And I must say your irritation is rather amusing, considering you once labeled me as some kind of anti-semitic henchman of Hitler just because I said that questioning the Holocaust should not be a jailable offense, and such laws were an abrogation of freedom of speech.)

So.... once you stop making bigoted remarks such as "Palestinians teach their kids to strap on suicide bombs," I'll stop calling you a racist.

(Oh and as a final note, if you really want to continue opening that can of worms about who's teaching their kids what.... I'll have to show you what Israeli public school books are teaching about Palestinians and Arabs. And yes, of course it will be footnoted with sources, not smilies. But really.... that's another thread.... )

No one wants to talk about the elephant in the room -- Israel's nukes ?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

ET -

Now you're just trying to play games.

Read the thread again. You brought up "resistance" after I had mentioned it to another who tried to characterize all Palestinian resistance as "terror," and you mocked it. Next, you remarked how you have no sympathy for people who "raise their children" to be suicide bombers. Then you went on to say how others had lost their land, yet didn't launch suicide missions, and how two wrongs don't make a right. In context, it was clear that you were characterizing Palestinian resistance as one of "sick missions" of suicide bombs.

That means that both sides of the conflict are in the wrong, doesn't it? Just as America is not furthering it's stated mission of combating global terrorism by illegally attacking a nation and hence engaging in much of the same, the Palestinians are not exactly furthering their cause by prominent parts of their movements enaging in, suporting and condoning acts of terrorism. Israel isn't doing itself much of a favor indisciminately shooting at everything that moves in "suspect" neighborhoods, either. Nobody is coming out on top there and no side is winning a first damn thing. The result is what we have in the region today - a fcuking mess wherever you look and no end to the madness in sight.

What I wish for is that all sides of the madness recognize that the current path is a destructive lose-lose deal and that some cooler heads on both sides prevail, take a step back and start talking about accomplishable goals rather than spewing hate and death each other's way. Of course, none of that is going to happen. Not in my lifetime anyways. A major part of the problem seems to be that nobdy is able to lead - and hence control - the Palestinians. Even if a "leader" engages in talks, some fringe elements that whatever authority is in charge cannot control typically keeps up their attacks to ensure that no peaceful solution will ever be found. In light of that, I sometimes feel that the Palestinians as a people have a bit of homework to do to substantiate what you claim they want with some noticeable action.

And even you cannot deny that there are a number of suicide bombings involved when you look at what you like to call "resistance", no? I just can't and don't call that resistance. I call that an act of terrorism mostly aimed at making the headlines by indiscriminately taking presumably innocent civilian life. I'll concede the point that the Israeli military does the same - I don't hail their actions for a minute. But that doesn't make it right. It makes what you refer to as the Palestinian resistance just as bad as those that they are allegedly fighting. In any such scenario, there'll never be a winner. It's just that simple. Hence, all the killing and dying is just for the rush of killing and dying. It doesn't accomplish anything but making matters worse. It's stupid and pointless. And it is terrorism no matter how you slice it.

Lastly, I'm not playing games. I also don't like having words put into my mouth.

Seems as well that Palestinians don't really need any external enemy.

POWER STRUGGLE IN THE GAZA STRIP

FATAH BY DAY, HAMAS BY NIGHT: The Double Life of Abu Khaled

But then, maybe there is a bit of hope:

Gaza's residents rally for peace

Edited December 25, 2006 by ET-US2004

[Risto 0]

So.... once you stop making bigoted remarks such as "Palestinians teach their kids to strap on suicide bombs," I'll stop calling you a racist.

Do you have a memory loss problem or you are just hypocritical?

I can imagine you miss this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2071561.stm

[Risto 0]

So.... once you stop making bigoted remarks such as "Palestinians teach their kids to strap on suicide bombs," I'll stop calling you a racist.

Do you have a memory loss problem or you are just hypocritical?

I can imagine you miss this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2071561.stm

and don’t say it’s fake

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/babybomber.htm

[peezey 0]

So.... once you stop making bigoted remarks such as "Palestinians teach their kids to strap on suicide bombs," I'll stop calling you a racist.

Do you have a memory loss problem or you are just hypocritical?

I can imagine you miss this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2071561.stm

You're the one who missed the point. Generalizations about all Palestinians are inaccurate and irresponsible and racist.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

That means that both sides of the conflict are in the wrong, doesn't it? Just as America is not furthering it's stated mission of combating global terrorism by illegally attacking a nation and hence engaging in much of the same, the Palestinians are not exactly furthering their cause by prominent parts of their movements enaging in, suporting and condoning acts of terrorism. Israel isn't doing itself much of a favor indisciminately shooting at everything that moves in "suspect" neighborhoods, either. Nobody is coming out on top there and no side is winning a first damn thing. The result is what we have in the region today - a fcuking mess wherever you look and no end to the madness in sight.

What I wish for is that all sides of the madness recognize that the current path is a destructive lose-lose deal and that some cooler heads on both sides prevail, take a step back and start talking about accomplishable goals rather than spewing hate and death each other's way. Of course, none of that is going to happen. Not in my lifetime anyways. A major part of the problem seems to be that nobdy is able to lead - and hence control - the Palestinians. Even if a "leader" engages in talks, some fringe elements that whatever authority is in charge cannot control typically keeps up their attacks to ensure that no peaceful solution will ever be found. In light of that, I sometimes feel that the Palestinians as a people have a bit of homework to do to substantiate what you claim they want with some noticeable action.

And even you cannot deny that there are a number of suicide bombings involved when you look at what you like to call "resistance", no? I just can't and don't call that resistance. I call that an act of terrorism mostly aimed at making the headlines by indiscriminately taking presumably innocent civilian life. I'll concede the point that the Israeli military does the same - I don't hail their actions for a minute. But that doesn't make it right. It makes what you refer to as the Palestinian resistance just as bad as those that they are allegedly fighting. In any such scenario, there'll never be a winner. It's just that simple. Hence, all the killing and dying is just for the rush of killing and dying. It doesn't accomplish anything but making matters worse. It's stupid and pointless. And it is terrorism no matter how you slice it.

Lastly, I'm not playing games. I also don't like having words put into my mouth.

Seems as well that Palestinians don't really need any external enemy.

POWER STRUGGLE IN THE GAZA STRIP

FATAH BY DAY, HAMAS BY NIGHT: The Double Life of Abu Khaled

But then, maybe there is a bit of hope:

Gaza's residents rally for peace

ET you're still not seeing the forest for the trees.

Tying to compare Palestinians' acts against Israel to that of the U.S. in Iraq is comparing bottle caps to giraffes. Palestinians did not invade Israel. Palestinians are not illegally occupying and appropriating Israeli land and natural resources. Palestinians are not turning Israelis into homeless refugees.

It's Israel that has illegally occupied and annexed Palestinian lands. This is in violation of all international law, just as the U.S. violated those laws in invading Iraq. You clearly see this in the case of Iraq -- why can't you admit it with Israel ? Both are behaving as if they are utterly immune from international law, pursuing whatever destructive policies they wish with utter impunity.

Face the cold hard facts: Israel's illegal occupation -- and all the other crimes that go along with it such as its illegal settlements, land confiscations, appropriation of resources, home demolitions, assassinations, kidnappings, destruction of private and public property, etc. etc.-- this is the "cause" of the trouble. The Palestinian "terror," just as in Iraq, is the "effect" of the root cause.

You are equating both sides' actions as "equally wrong." This is again blaming the victim for fighting back, without putting blame squarely where it belongs -- on the instigator who continues to instigate this conflict. Israel is the aggressor here -- it started the 1967 "pre-emptive" war with the express intent of expanding its territory into Palestinian land. There wasn't a Palestinian suicide bombing until 25 years later, in 1992. Palestinians have tried every means to appeal to the U.S. or the European countries for help, to stop Israel's crimes against them. Nothing was done -- their pleas for help were either ignored or swatted down by U.S. vetoes at the U.N. Any attempt to place international forces into the region or place sanctions on Israel were scuttled after loud opposition from the Israelis. Well of course. Meanwhile, Israel continued its rampage through the West Bank and Gaza -- for decades, without any serious violent resistance -- kicking Palestinians off their property in order to build its illlegal Jewish settlements and Jewish-only "access roads," destroying Palestinian farms and orchards, squeezing them into smaller and smaller enclaves.

And when some Palestinians finally become angry and desperate enough to turn to violence in return, Israel is aghast and cries about "the terror." This is logic turned completely upside down.

You seem to think that if only Palestinians would stop fighting back, that Israel will stop its behavior -- as if it would dismantle all of its illegal settlements (now containing nearly half a million people,) return the Palestinian lands to their rightful owners, relenquish control of Palestinian water resources and borders and airspace, and simply go home. This is in utter disregard of the facts -- look at their record of behavior, and look at what Israeli leaders have publicly announced they will do and will not do. Look what Israel has done to try to ensure they won't have to give up what they've stolen -- moving their illegal settlers (even the ones from Gaza !) into the West Bank faster than ever. And look at the internationals who have gone there to try to help with peaceful protest -- look how many have been beaten, jailed, shot by snipers, even run over by bulldozers.

International law has been telling Israel to get out of the West Bank (and Gaza) and to stop their illegal actions for nearly 40 years now. So it's quite unreasonable to be upset at the victims of this aggression because they are finally fighting back, even if you don't like the methods. It's kind of like if a guy invades your house, kicks your family out into the street, kills some of them and leaves the rest homeless or in a refugee camp, bulldozes your family farm in front of your eyes, moves his relatives onto your land.... and then has the nerve to complain that *you're* the terrorist because one of your angry brothers blows up some of his family. Then, adding insult to injury, the superpower of the world says *you're* the problem instead of blaming the intruder, and even worse -- gives the intruder the money and weapons he needs to stay, and shields him from international justice. And the only "solution" the intruder will consider involves him keeping the choicest parts of your property, and refusing to pay you any damages.

Of course it's terrible that innocent people are dying. Any feeling human being has to be horrified at the terrible toll of death and destruction. But far more innocent Palestinians are being killed, and it's their land that's being taken. No one is taking Israeli land. There is no excuse for Israel's terroristic behavior, and that behavior is what is instigating the retaliation, including the Palestinian "terror" that you keep pointing at as the Big Problem. You still can't seem to bring yourself to call Israel's actions what they are: state terror -- decades of institutionalized terror that has murdered, maimed, and dispossessed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. This massive state terror didn't attract nearly the attention in the West that the far fewer Israeli casualties of the past 15 years have received. Palestinians have inflicted only a tiny fraction of such suffering on Israelis. So Palestinians aren't "just as bad" as the Israelis, as you'd like to argue; they haven't invaded and occupied another country, and they aren't inflicting anywhere near the harm.

And Israel's state terror should be far more disturbing to Americans than the individual terror of "suicide bombers" which you keep going on about, because our government is paying for Israel's terror with our money, in violation of our own laws.

When you poke someone with a stick over and over and over, it's hypocritical to be outraged when they finally poke back. Israel enjoyed a long period of inflicting horrific crimes against the Palestinians -- about 45 years -- before they started to receive a small fraction of that terror in return, but they have a lot of people believing they're the victims.

Face the facts: Israel is responsible for the lion's share of the criminal acts and bloody violence. Israel started the problem, and continues to make it worse, using the victims' attempts to defend themselves as an "excuse" for more terror. So when Israel backs off and stops acting like the bloody criminal it's behaved like for the past 40 years, then it would have a leg to stand on in denouncing other criminals who haven't wrought near as much destruction on innocent people as Israel has.

Unfortunately, the only way this is going to happen is if Israel's best friend forever, the United States, starts backing international law instead of the utter mess it has protected and encouraged for so long. So if you really want to see peace in the Middle East instead of endless war most likely ending in mutual annihilation, this is the course you must support.

As for your remarks about Palestinian leadership, and the recent infighting between Palestinian political groups -- I am sorry but you don't have a clear understanding of what is going on. I will elaborate in a subsequent post in this thread.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

So.... once you stop making bigoted remarks such as "Palestinians teach their kids to strap on suicide bombs," I'll stop calling you a racist.

Do you have a memory loss problem or you are just hypocritical?

I can imagine you miss this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2071561.stm

You're the one who missed the point. Generalizations about all Palestinians are inaccurate and irresponsible and racist.

That's exactly the point, Peezey.

As for you, Risto --

LOL. Set the trap, bait it with the cheese, and out they come...

Truth or Ficion.com has "confirmed it," eh ? LMAO. Read it again. It confirms that Reuters and CNN ran the story "as true." In other words - "Yes, the story was published."

Read both the CNN and Reuters reports -- they both clearly state "The IDF says it found this photo of a bomb strapped baby in a Palestinian militant's home." Neither report confirms or denies the validity of the IDF's statement; only that the army made the statement.

When reputable journalists know there are solid facts that can be proved, they don't carefully couch their words with "says that" and "alleged."

Now let's take a closer look at this story.

According to the BBC, "The IDF has released a picture it says was found during its incursion in the West Bank town of Hebron showing an infant dressed as a Hamas militant wearing a suicide bomber's harness."

The article goes on to say that the picture was found in a family album during a search of a house belonging to an *alleged Hamas militant* in June 2002.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2071561.stm

Something here doesn't add up. The baby in the photo is wearing a red bandana. But Hamas doesn't wear red bandanas. They wear green ones. (Don't just take my word for it -- check for photos on the net.) Why would a "Hamas member" dress his child up as a "Hamas suicide bomber," and then get the bandana totally wrong ?

Other later reports allude to "alleged" family members (yes, they actually use the word "alleged") who say the photo was a joke. Sometimes they're named, sometimes not.

Also, parts of the photo appear to have been blacked out. No explanation given.

So.... the story may be genuine; it may not be. It may be a joke, it may not be. According to the BBC, there is no way to independently confirm if the picture is authentic or not.

Just wondering, Risto.... have you ever been to Hebron ? Do you know what the settlers there do, and what they teach their children to do, and how the Israeli Army protects them while they do it ? If you had, you might have some context in which to view such a pic.

Now here are some more pics for ya. (I have a lot more.) I wonder if you'll jump to a similar conclusion -- that such disturbing pics are "proof" of a sweeping racial stereotype like "Israelis teach their children to kill Arabs." Somehow, I doubt it.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

ET you're still not seeing the forest for the trees.

It's you that cannot see an act of terrorism as an act of terrorism. You keep making excuses for some of those claiming they're covered by international conventions and so on. You choose to look at it that way. I don't. For me, an act of terrorism is an act of terrorism and there are no excuses for it. Ever!

[Ban Hammer 13,133]

Now here are some more pics for ya. (I have a lot more.) I wonder if you'll jump to a similar conclusion -- that such disturbing pics are "proof" of a sweeping racial stereotype like "Israelis teach their children to kill Arabs." Somehow, I doubt it.

i doubt "...that such disturbing pics are "proof" of a sweeping racial stereotype like "Israelis teach their children to kill Arabs" too

Ammunition 20mm and larger is color-coded IAW MIL-STD 709C (see Tables F-2 and F-3). Figure F-5 shows typical markings for an artillery round of ammunition.

color.............Fed Std No 595....................Interpretation

Light green....34558 or 34449......Identifies screening or marking smoke ammunition.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Now here are some more pics for ya. (I have a lot more.) I wonder if you'll jump to a similar conclusion -- that such disturbing pics are "proof" of a sweeping racial stereotype like "Israelis teach their children to kill Arabs." Somehow, I doubt it.

i doubt "...that such disturbing pics are "proof" of a sweeping racial stereotype like "Israelis teach their children to kill Arabs" too

Ammunition 20mm and larger is color-coded IAW MIL-STD 709C (see Tables F-2 and F-3). Figure F-5 shows typical markings for an artillery round of ammunition.

color.............Fed Std No 595....................Interpretation

Light green....34558 or 34449......Identifies screening or marking smoke ammunition.

Charles,

Facts will get you nowhere...

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Now here are some more pics for ya. (I have a lot more.) I wonder if you'll jump to a similar conclusion -- that such disturbing pics are "proof" of a sweeping racial stereotype like "Israelis teach their children to kill Arabs." Somehow, I doubt it.

i doubt "...that such disturbing pics are "proof" of a sweeping racial stereotype like "Israelis teach their children to kill Arabs" too

Ammunition 20mm and larger is color-coded IAW MIL-STD 709C (see Tables F-2 and F-3). Figure F-5 shows typical markings for an artillery round of ammunition.

color.............Fed Std No 595....................Interpretation

Light green....34558 or 34449......Identifies screening or marking smoke ammunition.

Charles,

Facts will get you nowhere...

Those childrens parents were probably killed by those poor misunderstood Palestinian terrorists.