Israel, Alone

[Heracles 417]

Now can you tell me what good Palestine has brought to that region or the world. I mean come on now. These guys are obsessed with taking out Israel while their country is a waste land. It is just sad that the rest of the middle east has not told them to get their act together. Then again the middle east has double standards and has absolutely no problem with Turkey and their illegal occupation of Cyprus. Hey that is different, right?

As to the rest of your absurd comments... well they are completely off-topic.

I see. So when your Habibi brothers occupy a country that is different and acceptable is it..

[Caladan 19]

Israel has nukes? Next, they'll acknowledge that water is wet.

[peezey 0]

Now can you tell me what good Palestine has brought to that region or the world. I mean come on now. These guys are obsessed with taking out Israel while their country is a waste land. It is just sad that the rest of the middle east has not told them to get their act together. Then again the middle east has double standards and has absolutely no problem with Turkey and their illegal occupation of Cyprus. Hey that is different, right?

As to the rest of your absurd comments... well they are completely off-topic.

I see. So when your Habibi brothers occupy a country that is different and acceptable is it..

Are you comparing Cypriots to Palestinians or Turks to Palestinians? What is it that is supposedly acceptable?

[Risto 0]

Israel has nukes? Next, they'll acknowledge that water is wet.

Yea please let us know when Israel obtain Hydrogen bomb

[Heracles 417]

Now can you tell me what good Palestine has brought to that region or the world. I mean come on now. These guys are obsessed with taking out Israel while their country is a waste land. It is just sad that the rest of the middle east has not told them to get their act together. Then again the middle east has double standards and has absolutely no problem with Turkey and their illegal occupation of Cyprus. Hey that is different, right?

As to the rest of your absurd comments... well they are completely off-topic.

I see. So when your Habibi brothers occupy a country that is different and acceptable is it..

Are you comparing Cypriots to Palestinians or Turks to Palestinians? What is it that is supposedly acceptable?

Turks and Palestinians are in the same club. The only difference is that Turkey is more powerful. Why is it ok for Turkey to occupy a country they invaded in 1974?

[peezey 0]

Now can you tell me what good Palestine has brought to that region or the world. I mean come on now. These guys are obsessed with taking out Israel while their country is a waste land. It is just sad that the rest of the middle east has not told them to get their act together. Then again the middle east has double standards and has absolutely no problem with Turkey and their illegal occupation of Cyprus. Hey that is different, right?

As to the rest of your absurd comments... well they are completely off-topic.

I see. So when your Habibi brothers occupy a country that is different and acceptable is it..

Are you comparing Cypriots to Palestinians or Turks to Palestinians? What is it that is supposedly acceptable?

Turks and Palestinians are in the same club. The only difference is that Turkey is more powerful. Why is it ok for Turkey to occupy a country they invaded in 1974?

What club? Are you saying Palestinians are occupying land they didn't inhabit prior to some random point in time?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

You are repeating rhetoric designed to legitimatize Israeli crimes while demonizing Palestinian resistance.

Pot, meet Kettle.

I back up my "rhetoric" with facts...

"Palestinian Resistance"? Those are yor facts? Sorry but I got to get that smiley in here:

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Israel has nukes? Next, they'll acknowledge that water is wet.

Yeah that cat's been out of the bag for quite some time -- it's Israel's worst-kept secret. But apparently it's considered some huge political shocker to state it publicly in the U.S. or Israel. First Baker, then Olmert's remark -- it set off an earthquake in Israel.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Now can you tell me what good Palestine has brought to that region or the world. I mean come on now. These guys are obsessed with taking out Israel while their country is a waste land. It is just sad that the rest of the middle east has not told them to get their act together. Then again the middle east has double standards and has absolutely no problem with Turkey and their illegal occupation of Cyprus. Hey that is different, right?

As to the rest of your absurd comments... well they are completely off-topic.

I see. So when your Habibi brothers occupy a country that is different and acceptable is it..

Are you comparing Cypriots to Palestinians or Turks to Palestinians? What is it that is supposedly acceptable?

Turks and Palestinians are in the same club. The only difference is that Turkey is more powerful. Why is it ok for Turkey to occupy a country they invaded in 1974?

What in the world does Turkey's occupation of Cyprus have to do with the topic ????

This is a clear attempt to derail the thread -- much as if Jeffrey Dahmer, when faced with justice, might say "Well why don't you worry about the Atlanta Child Killer, huh ? He's bad, too... why don't you worry about that ?"

Answer: because it has nothing to do with the subject.

But I will indulge you, as I'm feeling a bit chipper...

Why do you assume that Palestinians aren't sympathetic to Cypriots ? Actually, they have quite friendly and supportive relations with each other. It's the U.S. (and people like you) who don't really give a rat's azz. You wouldn't even bring it up at all unless you thought it might deflect attention from what Israel is doing.

But anyway, since you brought it up...

TOP 10 REASONS WHY MORE PEOPLE AREN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO THE CYPRIOTS AND THE TURKS:

10. Because 4,398 Cypriots haven't been killed !

9. Because Cypriot water and electricity isn't being rationed, while Turks enjoy filling their swimming pools and sprinkling their lawns and running their air conditioners !

8. Because Turks aren't dropping one-ton bombs on 10-story Cypriot apartment buildings filled with women and children !

7. Because millions of Cypriots haven't been forced into refugee camps !

6. Because Cypriots have a government of their own that can support and protect them !

5. Because Turks aren't sending their soldiers into Cypriot government buildings to destroy things like land records and children's school records !

4. Because Turks aren't vowing in their own government meetings that "No one in Cyprus should sleep at night" !

3. Because pregnant Cypriot women in labor aren't being prevented from travelling to a hospital, and instead being forced to give birth in the dirt in front of occupation soldiers !

2.Because Cypriot schoolgirls aren't being shot by snipers on their way to school !

And the number one answer why more people aren't paying attention to the Cypriots and the Turks:

1. Because the Turks are important ALLIES of the U.S. *and* Israel !!!!!

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

You are repeating rhetoric designed to legitimatize Israeli crimes while demonizing Palestinian resistance.

Pot, meet Kettle.

I back up my "rhetoric" with facts...

"Palestinian Resistance"? Those are yor facts? Sorry but I got to get that smiley in here:

You're just miffed because I support my facts and figures with footnoted sources, not smiley faces.

And yes. "Resistance." That's what it's called. Just as the French resisted the Nazi occupation. Just as the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto resisted. Just as the blacks of South Africa resisted the apartheid regime. And so many others who have resisted oppression all over the world.

I must point out -- the distain and contempt you cast on the Palestinian struggle is particularly repulsive coming from you, ET, a native German. You actually sneer at another people's nightmare, nodding your head in snide self-righteousness as THEY pay the dreadful price for YOUR native country's crimes against the Jewish people -- their lands confiscated, their families driven from their homes, their houses, farms and orchards demolished, their towns and villages obliterated right in front of their eyes, paved over and renamed as if they had never existed.

You gloat as you watch them turned into penniless refugees, caged behind walls and razor wire, as you ride aboard the endless campaign to dehumanize and delegitimatize them, as you recite by heart the endless propaganda designed to justify the terrible injustice done against them. And now, as they struggle against all odds to resist the theft of the last little pieces that are left of their land, desperately fighting the illegal occupation of what international law recognizes as their *own* property, you smirk and scorn them.

I am not surprised. Because to sympathize with the Palestinians would be to acknowledge that they are today's innocent victims of YOUR native country's Nazi war crimes. It would mean admitting YOUR native country's key role in the ongoing destruction of the Palestinian people, who are still suffering the catastrophe set in motion by YOUR native country's wrongs some 60 years ago. The guilt and the fault for all of this suffering rightfully lays at the door of your own birthplace. But of course you can't acknowledge that, because to do so would be to admit that *logically*, if any people would "deserve" to be driven from their homes and their land confiscated to "pay" for the Holocaust, it's certainly not the people of Palestine. It would be the people of Germany.

So you are quite willing to accept -- even welcome -- the terrible wrong inflicted, and that continues to be inflicted, on the Palestinian people, because it means that the people of YOUR native country -- perhaps your family, your friends, so many so dear to you -- aren't the ones being forced to pay such a hellish price, and all for something that happened not in Palestine, but in YOUR native country. While Palestinians are murdered, maimed, robbed and turned into refugees, all stemming from something they had nothing to do with, Germany's people enjoy their lands and their homes and their cities, and that suits you just fine.

So you keep it up, mocking and demonizing the innocent victims. You keep telling yourself and anyone who might listen to you that *they're* the bad guys for daring to defend themselves and their property. You excuse Israel's criminal acts (yes, *recognized* as criminal and illegal under international law) still being perpetrated against the Palestinians because this warped rationalization would deflect the terrible punishment for YOUR native country's horrific evil to the Jews, shifting it away from Germany and forcing it instead onto the Palestinians.

Keep laughing and smirking, ET.... keep trying to make it all "make sense" in your twisted, self-serving logic. I guess that's the only way you can sleep at night.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

You are repeating rhetoric designed to legitimatize Israeli crimes while demonizing Palestinian resistance.

Pot, meet Kettle.

I back up my "rhetoric" with facts...

"Palestinian Resistance"? Those are yor facts? Sorry but I got to get that smiley in here:

I must point out -- the distain and contempt you cast on the Palestinian struggle is particularly repulsive coming from you, ET, a native German. You actually sneer at another people's nightmare, nodding your head in snide self-righteousness as THEY pay the dreadful price for YOUR native country's crimes against the Jewish people -- their lands confiscated, their families driven from their homes, their houses, farms and orchards demolished, their towns and villages obliterated right in front of their eyes, paved over and renamed as if they had never existed.

You gloat as you watch them turned into penniless refugees, caged behind walls and razor wire, as you ride aboard the endless campaign to dehumanize and delegitimatize them, as you recite by heart the endless propaganda designed to justify the terrible injustice done against them. And now, as they struggle against all odds to resist the theft of the last little pieces that are left of their land, desperately fighting the illegal occupation of what international law recognizes as their *own* property, you smirk and scorn them.

I am not surprised. Because to sympathize with the Palestinians would be to acknowledge that they are today's innocent victims of YOUR native country's Nazi war crimes. It would mean admitting YOUR native country's key role in the ongoing destruction of the Palestinian people, who are still suffering the catastrophe set in motion by YOUR native country's wrongs some 60 years ago. The guilt and the fault for all of this suffering rightfully lays at the door of your own birthplace. But of course you can't acknowledge that, because to do so would be to admit that *logically*, if any people would "deserve" to be driven from their homes and their land confiscated to "pay" for the Holocaust, it's certainly not the people of Palestine. It would be the people of Germany.

So you are quite willing to accept -- even welcome -- the terrible wrong inflicted, and that continues to be inflicted, on the Palestinian people, because it means that the people of YOUR native country -- perhaps your family, your friends, so many so dear to you -- aren't the ones being forced to pay such a hellish price, and all for something that happened not in Palestine, but in YOUR native country. While Palestinians are murdered, maimed, robbed and turned into refugees, all stemming from something they had nothing to do with, Germany's people enjoy their lands and their homes and their cities, and that suits you just fine.

So you keep it up, mocking and demonizing the innocent victims. You keep telling yourself and anyone who might listen to you that *they're* the bad guys for daring to defend themselves and their property. You excuse Israel's criminal acts (yes, *recognized* as criminal and illegal under international law) still being perpetrated against the Palestinians because this warped rationalization would deflect the terrible punishment for YOUR native country's horrific evil to the Jews, shifting it away from Germany and forcing it instead onto the Palestinians.

Keep laughing and smirking, ET.... keep trying to make it all "make sense" in your twisted, self-serving logic. I guess that's the only way you can sleep at night.

You have demonstrated quite impressively that you know nothing about me. I have much sympathy for people that lose their land. I have no sympathy for people that raise their childen to blow themselves up in crowded places and then cheer on as they complete their sick missions. No, no sympathy there whatsoever. And I won't call these many acts of terrorism resistance, either. Because they're not. Two wrongs don't make a right, you know. Until you understand that, I guess you've got quite a bit of your own "twisted self-serving logic" going. And maybe that's the only way you can sleep at night...

There are more people than the Palestinians that have seen their land shrink. And I don't see many of them blowing themselves up in crowded places to accomplish nothing but inflict harm and terror and see their land shrink some more. Again, two wrongs do not make a right.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

You have demonstrated quite impressively that you know nothing about me. I have much sympathy for people that lose their land. I have no sympathy for people that raise their childen to blow themselves up in crowded places and then cheer on as they complete their sick missions. No, no sympathy there whatsoever. And I won't call these many acts of terrorism resistance, either. Because they're not. Two wrongs don't make a right, you know. Until you understand that, I guess you've got quite a bit of your own "twisted self-serving logic" going. And maybe that's the only way you can sleep at night...

There are more people than the Palestinians that have seen their land shrink. And I don't see many of them blowing themselves up in crowded places to accomplish nothing but inflict harm and terror and see their land shrink some more. Again, two wrongs do not make a right.

As usual, your post (as so often when you comment on Palestinians in particular, and Muslims in general) is riddled with propaganda, lies and outright racism. In fact, ET, your posts are what "demonstrate quite impressively" a whole lot about you and where your "sympathy" (or should I say "antipathy") lies.

Look at your own words. You have characterized the entire Palestinian people as "raising their children to blow themselves up" and "cheering on their sick missions." What a load of racist shite -- like something you'd see on Meir Kahane's website. How many suicide bombers have there been ? Do you even have a clue ? Now let's think -- hmmm.... how many Nazi stormtroopers were there ? And then there was the Hitler Youth, the systematic indoctrination of German children. Not to mention the skinhead movement that's growing ever stronger in Germany today.

Let's follow through with your own racist logic, shall we ? So the German people must have "raised their children" to be Nazi stormtroopers and skinheads ? Hmmm... do you happen to be one of them ?

And how about the Israelis ? Israel is the world capital for ecstasy and the capital of the western world for sexual slavery. So would you also characterize the Israelis as "raising their children" to be ecstacy dealers or sexual enslavers ??

I know far more Palestinians than you ever did (or probably ever will) and not a single one of them is even related to a suicide bomber, much less preaches any hatred of "the Jews." In fact, most of them just want to get along, while a few just want to be left alone. Sure, racists and psychopaths exist in every group of people. But that doesn't mean that EVERYONE or even MOST others are like them, and only a racist or an ignoramus (or someone who is both) would say such a thing. Sadly, a lot of people will let such ignorant, racist statements as you've just made slide by (as long as they're targeting Muslims.)

How many Israeli civilians have died from Palestinian terror ? How many Palestinian civilians have died at the hands of Israeli terror ? You demonize the first, while making excuses for the second. You're not facing the fact that the first suicide bombing was in 1992, 25 YEARS after Israel's illegal occupation began, along with a string of assassinations, confiscations, and settlement building. So who started the terror, and who's responding to it ?

You would sneer at Palestinians for not waging a conventional-style war, knowing full well they're entirely denied the right to have an army, an air force, or any conventional military force at all to defend themselves. That's the way you and your chosen favorites want it -- a lop-sided rout. Then you have the nerve to condemn Palestinians for using what little means they have to resist against an overwhelming military force.

How much Israeli land have Palestinians occupied ? None. How many Israeli homes have Palestinians confiscated or destroyed ? None. How many Israelis have Palestinians turned into refugees ? None. But in Israel's ongoing offensive against the Palestinians (which by the way Israel started in 1967, while all the same time convincing fools like you of their "victimhood,") Israel has continued to terrorize the Palestinian people, attacking and murdering THOUSANDS of Palestinians, many women and children, some blown to bits while sleeping in their homes.

But you're concerned only that Israelis are being blown to bits, even though there's far fewer of them. And you won't admit that a lot of these Israeli casualties were either soldiers of the occupation, or illegal settlers armed with automatic weapons, squatting on Palestinian lands in the West Bank and Gaza. Your double standard is obvious -- it's "self-defense" if Israel's army or its gangs of settlers blow Palestinian civilians into pieces, but it's "terror" if Palestinians manage to do the same thing in return, even when it's on a much smaller scale (which you don't acknowledge either.)

And don't try to excuse Israel's criminal behavior by saying "Well Israel is going after the militants, and they hide among civilians." Because almost EVERY SINGLE Israeli adult is either a member of the Army, a member of the Army reserve, or an Army veteran. So according to this same logic, then every town, every pizzaria, every disco in Israel is "fair" game, as they're full of active and reserve duty soldiers. I don't agree with attacking civilians in any case, but since you enthusiastically accept such behavior by Israel, by the same token, you have to accept such acts by Palestinians as well (that is, IF you're as impartial and even-handed as you want us to believe you are.)

And I haven't even gotten into the subject of the crucial difference between actions taken by a sovereign state, and the actions of a few militant groups that aren't even part of a government. If you were truly fair and even-handed (as you try to convince us) then you would have to admit that a few militants do NOT equal the Palestinian people, and there is no way in hell to excuse Israel's state terrorization and collateral punishment of an entire people as just retribution for the acts of a few deranged suicide bombers. The Geneva Convention and international law do not give Israel an excuse to behave like a terrorist, yet you would.

But I forgot. You're not so fair and reasonable as you would like us to believe. You willfully subscribe to two standards of behavior: one for Israel -- it can do anything it wants to terrorize Palestinians, while you make excuses for their acts. And you have another standard for Palestinians -- any resistance at all is terror, and you will loudly condemn the whole lot of them. I don't doubt you actually believe your own sweeping generalization about 5 million people, as if they are some monolithic single-minded evil entity. You'd be outraged if someone were to characterize all Jews with a racist stereotype, yet you eagerly promote such bigoted stereotypes when it comes to Palestinians. That makes you a racist.

All in all, it's quite simple: if Israel doesn't like "terror attacks" on its civilians, it needs to quit terrorizing the Palestinians -- take its soldiers and its settlers and get the ** off Palestinian land. In fact, that's what the U.N. has been telling them for going on 40 years now. But thanks to people (like you) who continue to defend Israel's illegal actions, nothing will change any time soon -- there will be more violence, more killing, more destruction. This should keep you pretty happy, as it will be mostly Palestinians who get wiped out, whether they resist or not.

But since you condone Israel's illegal acts of state terror, you're obviously a hypocrite to be outraged over the illegal actions a few Palestinians take in retaliation. Especially as they are dwarfed by the massive scale of bloodshed and destruction that Israel has unleashed.

I have allowed your distractions to derail this thread long enough.

Back to the topic: Israel's nuclear weapons and their implications on the future (which really has nothing to do with the Palestinians at all.)

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

You have demonstrated quite impressively that you know nothing about me. I have much sympathy for people that lose their land. I have no sympathy for people that raise their children to blow themselves up in crowded places and then cheer on as they complete their sick missions. No, no sympathy there whatsoever. And I won't call these many acts of terrorism resistance, either. Because they're not. Two wrongs don't make a right, you know. Until you understand that, I guess you've got quite a bit of your own "twisted self-serving logic" going. And maybe that's the only way you can sleep at night...

There are more people than the Palestinians that have seen their land shrink. And I don't see many of them blowing themselves up in crowded places to accomplish nothing but inflict harm and terror and see their land shrink some more. Again, two wrongs do not make a right.

As usual, your post (as so often when you comment on Palestinians in particular, and Muslims in general) is riddled with propaganda, lies and outright racism. In fact, ET, your posts are what "demonstrate quite impressively" a whole lot about you and where your "sympathy" (or should I say "antipathy") lies.

Look at your own words. You have characterized the entire Palestinian people as "raising their children to blow themselves up" and "cheering on their sick missions."

You gotta start working on your reading comprehension skills. I said "I have no sympathy for people that raise their children to blow themselves up in crowded places and then cheer on as they complete their sick missions.". You response suggests that I said "I have no sympathy for a people that raise their children to blow themselves up in crowded places and then cheer on as they complete their sick missions." which I did not.

You may go on labeling acts of terrorism resistance. You may call them whatever you please, actually. And I will go on calling them what they are: acts of terrorism. In the meantime, you should refrain from calling me a racist. I may be a lot of things to a lot of different people, but a racist I am not. I simply despise idiots that commit acts of terror and those that encourage them to do so. It doesn't make a first difference to me what color or ethnicity those idiots happen to be.

Let's follow through with your own racist logic, shall we ? So the German people must have "raised their children" to be Nazi stormtroopers and skinheads ? Hmmm... do you happen to be one of them ?

Do you even know how idiotic this sounds? I know you'd like nothing as much as sending me on some kind of a guilt trip for being a native German. Try all you want, it won't work. Just comes to show that there ain't much substance to your argument.

How many Israeli civilians have died from Palestinian terror? How many Palestinian civilians have died at the hands of Israeli terror? You demonize the first, while making excuses for the second.

I see you're busy making assumptions. Rather bad assumptions at that. When and where did I make those alleged excuses? Care to point that out?

Edited December 24, 2006 by ET-US2004

[mawilson 2,133]

And don't try to excuse Israel's criminal behavior by saying "Well Israel is going after the militants, and they hide among civilians." Because almost EVERY SINGLE Israeli adult is either a member of the Army, a member of the Army reserve, or an Army veteran. So according to this same logic, then every town, every pizzaria, every disco in Israel is "fair" game, as they're full of active and reserve duty soldiers. I don't agree with attacking civilians in any case, but since you enthusiastically accept such behavior by Israel, by the same token, you have to accept such acts by Palestinians as well (that is, IF you're as impartial and even-handed as you want us to believe you are.)

Were the nineteen Israeli school kids who were killed outside a Tel-Aviv disco in June 2001 -

all aged between 15 and 18 - also members of the Army? Can you justify their murder as an

"act of resistance"?