Tom Delay: “Hillary will be the next president of the United States"

[ace13 0]

This is how socialized medicine works in Italy:

You get pregnant

You go to the doctor who tells you the good news no problems yet

The doctor says you need lab tests and ultrasounds according to this schedule ok

You call every hospital in a 100 mile radius and none have openings when you are required to go

You call a private hospital and get an appointment for the day you need but have to pay 100 euro a visit

So not only do you pay the tax...you pay the private doctor, too.

Wow. What a wonderful system.

_______________________________________________

Example two:

You have kidney stones

You have passed one already and need to have to have a procedure done

The next available surgery date is 6 months from now

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

This is how socialized medicine works in Italy:

You get pregnant

You go to the doctor who tells you the good news no problems yet

This is how fragmented healthcare in the US works:

You get pregnant. You see the doctor regularly for your pre-natal visits. Everything is well.

Then you need to move. In your new city, no doctor will see you if you are past 12 weeks.

That's much better, eh?

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

The horror stories you describe would be an accurate depiction of what I went through to get my Iritis treated on an HMO here in the US, whilst constantly having to refer to my Primary Care doctor for referrals to treat a condition he knows little about.

In my most recent flare-up, I thought I was going blind so I went to see someone out of network. Guess what, I paid twice!

[almaty 19]

The horror stories you describe would be an accurate depiction of what I went through to get my Iritis treated on an HMO here in the US, whilst constantly having to refer to my Primary Care doctor for referrals to treat a condition he knows little about.

In my most recent flare-up, I thought I was going blind so I went to see someone out of network. Guess what, I paid twice!

just wrong.,.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

This is how socialized medicine works in Italy:

You get pregnant

You go to the doctor who tells you the good news no problems yet

The doctor says you need lab tests and ultrasounds according to this schedule ok

You call every hospital in a 100 mile radius and none have openings when you are required to go

You call a private hospital and get an appointment for the day you need but have to pay 100 euro a visit

So not only do you pay the tax...you pay the private doctor, too.

Wow. What a wonderful system.

_______________________________________________

Example two:

You have kidney stones

You have passed one already and need to have to have a procedure done

The next available surgery date is 6 months from now

Noone claims that the system is perfect, and actually there are quite wide variances in the quality of treatment in socialised systems across Europe.

Still can anyone justify to me what benefit US consumers get out of paying massive charges for prescription drugs, with 10 - 20x price markups passed on to the consumer on drugs that are researched and manufactured overseas?

[mawilson 2,133]

Still can anyone justify to me what benefit US consumers get out of paying massive charges for prescription drugs, with 10 - 20x price markups passed on to the consumer on drugs that are researched and manufactured overseas?

Manufactured - perhaps but mostly researched here, I believe (and research is NOT cheap.)

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Still can anyone justify to me what benefit US consumers get out of paying massive charges for prescription drugs, with 10 - 20x price markups passed on to the consumer on drugs that are researched and manufactured overseas?

Manufactured - perhaps but mostly researched here, I believe (and research is NOT cheap.)

If indeed the research is conducted by US companies. It still doesn't explain how drugs researched and manufactured in Europe cost a fraction of what we pay in the US. Something isn't right here - lets not forget it's the insurance industry that applies these mark-ups, not the pharmaceutical company.

[mawilson 2,133]

Still can anyone justify to me what benefit US consumers get out of paying massive charges for prescription drugs, with 10 - 20x price markups passed on to the consumer on drugs that are researched and manufactured overseas?

Manufactured - perhaps but mostly researched here, I believe (and research is NOT cheap.)

If indeed the research is conducted by US companies. It still doesn't explain how drugs researched and manufactured in Europe cost a fraction of what we pay in the US. Something isn't right here - lets not forget it's the insurance industry that applies these mark-ups, not the pharmaceutical company.

Are you sure drugs are cheaper in Europe? A friend of mine who lives in Germany pays 30% more than

what I pay here for the same prescription drug.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Still can anyone justify to me what benefit US consumers get out of paying massive charges for prescription drugs, with 10 - 20x price markups passed on to the consumer on drugs that are researched and manufactured overseas?

Manufactured - perhaps but mostly researched here, I believe (and research is NOT cheap.)

If indeed the research is conducted by US companies. It still doesn't explain how drugs researched and manufactured in Europe cost a fraction of what we pay in the US. Something isn't right here - lets not forget it's the insurance industry that applies these mark-ups, not the pharmaceutical company.

Are you sure drugs are cheaper in Europe? A friend of mine who lives in Germany pays 30% more than

what I pay here for the same prescription drug.

Yep - experienced it first-hand. 7 quid in UK Vs. $100+ in US.

[Reynaldo 0]

Still can anyone justify to me what benefit US consumers get out of paying massive charges for prescription drugs, with 10 - 20x price markups passed on to the consumer on drugs that are researched and manufactured overseas?

Manufactured - perhaps but mostly researched here, I believe (and research is NOT cheap.)

If indeed the research is conducted by US companies. It still doesn't explain how drugs researched and manufactured in Europe cost a fraction of what we pay in the US. Something isn't right here - lets not forget it's the insurance industry that applies these mark-ups, not the pharmaceutical company.

Are you sure drugs are cheaper in Europe? A friend of mine who lives in Germany pays 30% more than

what I pay here for the same prescription drug.

Yep - experienced it first-hand. 7 quid in UK Vs. $100+ in US.

So, does that mean a pound is worth 15 dollars?

ETA: I saw an article on drug prices in America and the researcher said that they charge that much for medicines in the US because they know people will pay for it.

Edited December 15, 2006 by Reynaldo

[mawilson 2,133]

Yep - experienced it first-hand. 7 quid in UK Vs. $100+ in US.

Subsidised by the NHS, yet considered cosmetic/non-life-threatening here?

[dani_christine 0]

Still can anyone justify to me what benefit US consumers get out of paying massive charges for prescription drugs, with 10 - 20x price markups passed on to the consumer on drugs that are researched and manufactured overseas?

Manufactured - perhaps but mostly researched here, I believe (and research is NOT cheap.)

If indeed the research is conducted by US companies. It still doesn't explain how drugs researched and manufactured in Europe cost a fraction of what we pay in the US. Something isn't right here - lets not forget it's the insurance industry that applies these mark-ups, not the pharmaceutical company.

Are you sure drugs are cheaper in Europe? A friend of mine who lives in Germany pays 30% more than

what I pay here for the same prescription drug.

that doesn't mean that the drugs are cheaper in the UK. it simply means that the NHS is paying for them instead of the consumer (although you can argue that the consumer is paying indirectly via high taxes). another thing to consider...there are many drugs that are simply not available in the UK, period. the consumer has no right to pay for drugs that are considered non-formulary, as we are allowed to do here in the US.

in addition, one needs to consider that one of the most obvious reasons for higher costs for prescription drugs here in the US is the fact that we live in such a litigious society. just take a look at all the class-action lawsuits that are advertised on TV every day...everyone is looking to get rich quick.

in the UK, most people pay 20% income taxes, an additional 10% for national insurance (that's like our social security), and let's not forget 17.5% value-added tax on every purchase. (that's a 17.5% sales tax on every single item you purchase).

now, when i do the math, that means it is VERY expensive to live there...and we haven't even touched on the higher cost of living in general.

what i'm saying is...socialism ain't cheap, kids.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Its because people think that shoring up the bottom line of Corporate America through price controls is somehow in their best interest. I have a hard time swallowing that when drugs here are fantastically expensive, compared to the prices in Canada and Europe, and when you see TV ads suggesting that getting a second job to pay for medical debts, selling off your assets and re mortgaging your home to pay for cancer treatment is a normal part of daily life.

It doesn't sit well at all with me that a person can be financially secure one minute, and living on the streets 6 months later.

It's similar to that "at will" clause in most employment contracts that essentially gives your employer the right to terminate your employment at any time, and for any reason.

People complain about the number of lawsuits being thrown around (incidentally one of the charges about why US healthcare is so expensive is because of "frivolous lawsuits") - that may be true, but when people have so few legislative protections its seems a culture of litigation is frankly inevitable.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Still can anyone justify to me what benefit US consumers get out of paying massive charges for prescription drugs, with 10 - 20x price markups passed on to the consumer on drugs that are researched and manufactured overseas?

Manufactured - perhaps but mostly researched here, I believe (and research is NOT cheap.)

If indeed the research is conducted by US companies. It still doesn't explain how drugs researched and manufactured in Europe cost a fraction of what we pay in the US. Something isn't right here - lets not forget it's the insurance industry that applies these mark-ups, not the pharmaceutical company.

Are you sure drugs are cheaper in Europe? A friend of mine who lives in Germany pays 30% more than

what I pay here for the same prescription drug.

that doesn't mean that the drugs are cheaper in the UK. it simply means that the NHS is paying for them instead of the consumer (although you can argue that the consumer is paying indirectly via high taxes). another thing to consider...there are many drugs that are simply not available in the UK, period. the consumer has no right to pay for drugs that are considered non-formulary, as we are allowed to do here in the US.

in addition, one needs to consider that one of the most obvious reasons for higher costs for prescription drugs here in the US is the fact that we live in such a litigious society. just take a look at all the class-action lawsuits that are advertised on TV every day...everyone is looking to get rich quick.

in the UK, most people pay 20% income taxes, an additional 10% for national insurance (that's like our social security), and let's not forget 17.5% value-added tax on every purchase. (that's a 17.5% sales tax on every single item you purchase).

now, when i do the math, that means it is VERY expensive to live there...and we haven't even touched on the higher cost of living in general.

what i'm saying is...socialism ain't cheap, kids.

And yet I made a lot more money in the UK doing a comparable job...

I pay more in taxes and deductions here than I ever did in the UK. Try adding up all of your tax deductions for Federal and State tax and then add your healthcare deductions to the total. You'll find it's the same, if not more than UK tax.

In fact, on my last wage slip - my total deductions per pay check amount to a grand total of 35-40%.

Edited December 15, 2006 by erekose

[Reynaldo 0]

I was going to post something else, but after reading erekose's post the only thing I can really say is:

Touche...

But I think because it's French that must be also anti-America, right?