Tom Delay: “Hillary will be the next president of the United States"

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I see we're about to get confrontational on this thread

[Reynaldo 0]

I see we're about to get confrontational on this thread

It just does not compute...

ETA: Unless these people are CEOs from healthcare providers, there is no benefit for them to try to defend a messed up system.

But it seems like VJ is full of CEOs...

Edited December 13, 2006 by Reynaldo

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Reynaldo,

Are you unfamiliar with the American phenomenon of the "small government conservative"?

[Reynaldo 0]

Reynaldo,

Are you unfamiliar with the American phenomenon of the "small government conservative"?

Not anymore.

But isn't it basically make the gov't smaller so the private institutions can dictate the rules?

Isn't that just paradoxic?

Isn't Europe not like that and in the same time it is increasing its wealth?

ETA: As oposed to 6 years of GOP dominance has made america shrink and made the social gap larger?

Edited December 13, 2006 by Reynaldo

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Gotta love this chart almost 50% taxes! Love those socialists.

http://www.oecdobserver.org/images//1313.photo.jpg

[Reynaldo 0]

Gotta love this chart almost 50% taxes! Love those socialists.

http://www.oecdobserver.org/images//1313.photo.jpg

Howcome that even paying more taxes than you, they still are able to have more money?

Is it...... magic????

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Gotta love this chart almost 50% taxes! Love those socialists.

http://www.oecdobserver.org/images//1313.photo.jpg

Howcome that even paying more taxes than you, they still are able to have more money?

Is it...... magic????

Where did you read they have more money?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

It's cute how people think that if programs are funded with less taxes, that the taxpayers won't be paying for them in another way only more expensively.

In that way, conservatives are the real dreamers and eternal optimists...

even cuter is how some think money grows on trees

But see to me, I think that's what you think.

If we don't pay for it with taxes, everyone will magically take personal responsibility and we'll never pay a dime! Prices won't increase ever! We won't be stuck paying more for stuff taxes used to cover! It's really quite optimistic.

uh huh. just like some think it will be "fair" to make those more motivated in life to pay for those without any ambition.

Yup. And if we don't pay for it in taxes, then the money will magically come from...where? The money tree? Oh yeah, still us.

it's called quit being a leech and be responsible for your own health.

See, now, that's why I think you're an idealist. Actually, a pollyanna, even. 1. Just because you tell people to does not mean they will suddenly work. 2. Most people who need gov't assistance don't need it because they are lazy. What a wonderful world it would be if everyone could just pull themselves up by their "bootstraps" and take some good old fashioned responsibility!

and you're promoting big brother/socialized medicine. let's have the government take care of our health needs. after seeing how they botch everything else, i'll pass.

I never understood the arguments against socialised medicine. When you considering that:

1) After taxes and medical deductions, I actually pay as much or more from my pay check than I used to pay in the UK - and that still doesn't take into consideration out of pocket expenses if you go to the doctor or (God forbid), the hospital. So in reality, its more expensive in the US than it ever was in Britain.

2) When you sign up for health insurance with your employer (you usually have one or two choices at least) you have absolutely no way of telling which treatments are covered under the plan. So how is a person able to make an informed choice about what is the best option for them? The standard "If you don't like it, get a better job" line is a hollow one - considering that taking almost ANY job will land you in the same situation (a choice or 2 or more plans, with nothing other than financial criteria to choose between them).

3) The standard of care I received when I had a surgical procedure in California last year was indistinguishable from the standard of care I received in Britain under the NHS.

4) My father in law (who has an extremely expensive private plan) was almost killed when his insurance provider decided to interfere with his treatment (on non-medical grounds). They didn't seem to think that a man with a serious heart condition needed to see a cardiologist...

5) My Sister in law (who at one point had no health insurance) was almost killed when she got a kidney infection, and because of the fear of being bankrupted by hospital charges didn't go to the hospital until the condition became literally life-threatening. Similarly, many people I worked with at the time I had my surgery all gave me the distinct impression that they would have "taken their chances" with a cancer scare rather than get it checked out (and incur massive expense) even with insurance. It seems to me that many people who are insured are afraid of going to the doctor / hospital because financial fears take precedence over their own health and well being.

Even without a socialised system I wonder if people really do believe that supporting the interests of the corporate healthcare industry is in their own best interest, and the interests of the country as a whole.

At the very least someone should stand up and stick their finger up at the lobbyists and actually petition the government for a more ethical private system that doesn't allow profit to compromise care (as happens currently).

Right on! Opponents of universal health care fail to see that the US spends more on healthcare than any other nation - both total and per capita - relying on private market "solutions" as opposed to publicly administered models. Yet, a significant portion of the population has inadequate care and no access to quality care. Those opposed "Washington bureaucrats" making health care decisions have no problem with solely profit oriented insurance bureaucrats making those decisions. Those becrying the inefficiencies of government administration have not once addressed the fact that the privately run health care system has created an amount of administrative overhead and red tape (if I remember correctly, more than 30% of total heath care expenditures go towards overhead and administration) that no government run system anywhere in the world - including those in the US - has managed to create.

The supposed "efficiency" and "quality" of the US health care system are myths created by those that profit handsomely from and are, therefore, interested in maintainingfrom the clearly broken sytem that we have today.

[desert_fox 32]

How would you like it if they turned yur healthcare over to some govt agency like the USCIS?? no thanks....I'll pass.

[rclouse 0]

How would you like it if they turned yur healthcare over to some govt agency like the USCIS?? no thanks....I'll pass.

How about if it were turned over to the fire department? I don't know about you, but here in southern California all of our emergency responders kick major ###. Earthquakes, fires, floods; they do a fantastic job.

Who says a "government bureaucracy" is automatically a failure?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

How would you like it if they turned yur healthcare over to some govt agency like the USCIS?? no thanks....I'll pass.

How about if it were turned over to the fire department? I don't know about you, but here in southern California all of our emergency responders kick major ###. Earthquakes, fires, floods; they do a fantastic job.

Who says a "government bureaucracy" is automatically a failure?

There are quite a few local and state level bureacracies that are run very well. I wouldn't be averse to healthcare reform at that level. I seriously doubt the ability of the Feds to do it right, though.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Who says a "government bureaucracy" is automatically a failure?

Those who pretend that a private bureaucracy is automatically a success...

[kaydee457 13]

How would you like it if they turned yur healthcare over to some govt agency like the USCIS?? no thanks....I'll pass.

How about if it were turned over to the fire department? I don't know about you, but here in southern California all of our emergency responders kick major ###. Earthquakes, fires, floods; they do a fantastic job.

Who says a "government bureaucracy" is automatically a failure?

These people aren't managing your affairs.......and what are you comparing their efforts to as they have no private competition?

There's no way anyone can convince me that having a government oversee of the health industry is going to do anything but make matters worse.....

Now if the bureacrats want to "fix" the insurance costs ladeled onto the costs of medical care due to lawsuits then I say go-fer-it; but stay out of the decision making and management of health care at the individual's level.

Edited December 13, 2006 by kaydee457

[Dr_LHA 3]

Gotta love this chart almost 50% taxes! Love those socialists.

http://www.oecdobserver.org/images//1313.photo.jpg

That chart shows that UK has lower taxes than the USA, but the UK has socialised healthcare. Please show me the chart that correlates countries socialised healthcare with people actually having less spending power because of it.

As someone who grew up with the NHS I also fail to see the problem with socialised healthcare that Americans have. I pay about the same level of taxes here as I did in the UK, except now I have to pay a butt load of money on health insurance as well. The healthcare I have gotten is no better than in the UK (even when I lived in the expensive Santa Barbara), and in the UK I didn't have to argue with my insurance company over every charge, like for example: they decided I had to pay $500 for an ambulance that someone called for me when I was unconcious with blood pouring out of my head after an accident because some pencil pusher decided it wasn't necessary. Apparenly I should have got back on my bicycle and road the 5 miles to the ER!

What it comes down to is a rather mean spirited attitude in this country towards anybody else. This is the "me" culture. "Why should my taxes go to pay for some poor person to get a flu-vaccine! I don't care if they die!" Yet the same people don't care that the Government pisses away their hard earned taxes on pork barrel projects and pointless wars.

Imagine if you had to pay for the police to protect you, and if you didn't people could just kill you without impunity. If people suggested a "socialised" police force there would be people on here arguing against it.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

How would you like it if they turned yur healthcare over to some govt agency like the USCIS?? no thanks....I'll pass.

How about if it were turned over to the fire department? I don't know about you, but here in southern California all of our emergency responders kick major ###. Earthquakes, fires, floods; they do a fantastic job.

Who says a "government bureaucracy" is automatically a failure?

These people aren't managing your affairs.......and what are you comparing their efforts to as they have no private competition?

There's no way anyone can convince me that having a government oversee of the health industry is going to do anything but make matters worse.....

Now if the bureacrats want to "fix" the insurance costs ladeled onto the costs of medical care due to lawsuits then I say go-fer-it; but stay out of the decision making and management of health care at the individual's level.

CLASSIC, comparing the fire dept. to national healthcare! I have seen it all now. My god!