Father Disowns Homophobic Daughter in Epic Letter

[Danno 1,228]

Society did. I am not making issues with child sex laws or child pornography and no one is discussing that anyway. It seems as though no one can discuss the topic of homosexuality (or sexuality for that matter) without it going directly to children. Pedophiles are not the same as homosexuals. This is the same as the anti-gun people who immediately ask why I do not support the concealed carry of thermo-nuclear devices or backyard swimming pool aircraft carriers. They cannot discuss it logically. I have given up on that effort. (the other is to immediately reference the size of one's #######, which may a bit homophobic,)

Anyway...if you believe in God (I think yes, you do) and if you believe God created man and woman...then you have to ask yourself why women...females..become reproductively capable at age 10-12 in most cases and why their egg prodcution drops drastically after age 30. I mean, physiologically they are at their peak for childbirth in those years but age 16 and over may be better simply because they have gained their mature body size.

Our society has produced young people that are not capable of surviving on their own at that age, so we protect them by establishing ages which are little more than arbitrary to be "adults". In some states that is 16 years of age and others it is 18. In some states it is 16 for some things and 18 for others. But it has nothing to do with homosexuality. seems ridiculous to say a girl can drive an automobile and not have sex. She is smart enough and responsible enough to aim a 3 ton missle around town on public streets where children play...but not responsible enough to decide who she wants to have sex with and use a condom?

I know the Rusian government is particularly anti-gay but I have never noticed any huge amount of gay bashing among people who are educated in the FSU. Of course opinions among drop out Gopnicki and the Orthodox "believers" who consider themselves "Christians" and other religions something else...there is a religious repulsion to it. The government mainly wants control. But, Danno, seriously, did you ever notice the rampant bi-sexuality of the women? Are you blind and deaf? Maybe not your wife, but Dude, ask her...she never noticed? C'mon! When 56% of the women have a choice of masturbation, bisexual sex or sex with drunk abusive (and I MEAN drunk and abusive) men, what do you think a lot of them do? I mean at least sometimes. They generally seem pretty laissez-faire about the whole thing.

It just is not a common attitude for people married to FSU women, Danno, but there are a lot of religious women in Russia and maybe that is what you sought out (why not?) I had a very good female friend who I had a lot of fun and good conversations with, but she was very Orthodox and there was going to be NO SEX!!!!!!!! so it was just that...a friendship. But other than that, it is just not an issue for most because it would be ...um...hypocritical. Even Bad_Daddy (Kip) thought two girls was hot!

Just sayin', you are kind of an anomoly. But hey, to each their own.

It is just funny to me that in this day when a lot of people do not know their next door neighbors, do not care about them and would not know them if they saw them in the grocery store...somehow what they do in their bedroom can affect someone else's marriage. Wacky, just wacky

Gary one of your problems is, your pool of logic, or at least the ability to defend it is so brief and limited, it amounts to FLASH CARDS.

When someone questions -Why you have the right to a gun but not a missile or grenade, it is not enough to just say they are being silly... you must have a cogent response. To pretend no one will want a grenade is its self silly.

SOmeone laid out the case that "nature would teach us" what is moral or acceptable, I simply followed along that train of thought and you, rather than address the mans point, again flashed a card and moved on.

[Peikko 1,575]

Well it would seem marriage to 13 year old girls would pass the test or natures bar

you set up.

How? A 13 year old girl is not mature either sexually or emotionally. Our emotional development has been scientifically mapped and our ability to externalize concepts only really becomes fully developed around 18-20. Moreover, you are presumably becuase you didn't specify, but presumably talking about a marriage between a 13 year old and a rather older male, not a puberscent male. An older male who wants to marry an immature girl is not wanting to marry a person or an equal. Quite frankly I fail to see the desirable qualities of a 13 year old girl to an older man, beyond the fact that it is unlikely she has any previous sexual experience or views of her own that she can successfully bring to the relationship. What kind of man does that?

[Crashed~N2~Me 970]

Gary one of your problems is, your pool of logic, or at least the ability to defend it is so brief and limited, it amounts to FLASH CARDS.

When someone questions -Why you have the right to a gun but not a missile or grenade, it is not enough to just say they are being silly... you must have a cogent response. To pretend no one will want a grenade is its self silly.

SOmeone laid out the case that "nature would teach us" what is moral or acceptable, I simply followed along that train of thought and you, rather than address the mans point, again flashed a card and moved on.

"Flash Cards"...

That's maybe 1 of the best insults I've seen thrown at any1 in this forum...& it's funnier coz it was thrown at Gary = The walking Dart Board.

Sorry Gary.. but even if it was thrown at me...it's gotta get a +1.

[Danno 1,228]

How? A 13 year old girl is not mature either sexually or emotionally. Our emotional development has been scientifically mapped and our ability to externalize concepts only really becomes fully developed around 18-20. Moreover, you are presumably becuase you didn't specify, but presumably talking about a marriage between a 13 year old and a rather older male, not a puberscent male. An older male who wants to marry an immature girl is not wanting to marry a person or an equal. Quite frankly I fail to see the desirable qualities of a 13 year old girl to an older man, beyond the fact that it is unlikely she has any previous sexual experience or views of her own that she can successfully bring to the relationship. What kind of man does that?

First of all, girls marrying at 13 and 14 have historically been very common, even in this country.

I would say girls of 14 in some cultures do seem more emotionally mature than many western women of 18, but all this is not really relevant as the question is-

Who will decide at which age different cultures can marry as the "natures standard" seems to be veering off into psyc-evaluations rather than what nature allows.

What age is too young and does your law apply to all cultures equally?

[Danno 1,228]

"Flash Cards"...

That's maybe 1 of the best insults I've seen thrown at any1 in this forum...& it's funnier coz it was thrown at Gary = The walking Dart Board.

Sorry Gary.. but even if it was thrown at me...it's gotta get a +1.

My insult is not aimed at gary as much at his super simplistic pronouncements of the world and complex subjects.

To say "I believe in choice" as a handy One size fits all, defense of every position is beneath him.

[Peikko 1,575]

Society did. I am not making issues with child sex laws or child pornography and no one is discussing that anyway. It seems as though no one can discuss the topic of homosexuality (or sexuality for that matter) without it going directly to children. Pedophiles are not the same as homosexuals. This is the same as the anti-gun people who immediately ask why I do not support the concealed carry of thermo-nuclear devices or backyard swimming pool aircraft carriers. They cannot discuss it logically. I have given up on that effort. (the other is to immediately reference the size of one's #######, which may a bit homophobic,)

Anyway...if you believe in God (I think yes, you do) and if you believe God created man and woman...then you have to ask yourself why women...females..become reproductively capable at age 10-12 in most cases and why their egg prodcution drops drastically after age 30. I mean, physiologically they are at their peak for childbirth in those years but age 16 and over may be better simply because they have gained their mature body size.

Our society has produced young people that are not capable of surviving on their own at that age, so we protect them by establishing ages which are little more than arbitrary to be "adults". In some states that is 16 years of age and others it is 18. In some states it is 16 for some things and 18 for others. But it has nothing to do with homosexuality. seems ridiculous to say a girl can drive an automobile and not have sex. She is smart enough and responsible enough to aim a 3 ton missle around town on public streets where children play...but not responsible enough to decide who she wants to have sex with and use a condom?

I know the Rusian government is particularly anti-gay but I have never noticed any huge amount of gay bashing among people who are educated in the FSU. Of course opinions among drop out Gopnicki and the Orthodox "believers" who consider themselves "Christians" and other religions something else...there is a religious repulsion to it. The government mainly wants control. But, Danno, seriously, did you ever notice the rampant bi-sexuality of the women? Are you blind and deaf? Maybe not your wife, but Dude, ask her...she never noticed? C'mon! When 56% of the women have a choice of masturbation, bisexual sex or sex with drunk abusive (and I MEAN drunk and abusive) men, what do you think a lot of them do? I mean at least sometimes. They generally seem pretty laissez-faire about the whole thing.

It just is not a common attitude for people married to FSU women, Danno, but there are a lot of religious women in Russia and maybe that is what you sought out (why not?) I had a very good female friend who I had a lot of fun and good conversations with, but she was very Orthodox and there was going to be NO SEX!!!!!!!! so it was just that...a friendship. But other than that, it is just not an issue for most because it would be ...um...hypocritical. Even Bad_Daddy (Kip) thought two girls was hot!

Just sayin', you are kind of an anomoly. But hey, to each their own.

It is just funny to me that in this day when a lot of people do not know their next door neighbors, do not care about them and would not know them if they saw them in the grocery store...somehow what they do in their bedroom can affect someone else's marriage. Wacky, just wacky

Once again a post full of contradictions, false premise, and conclusions drawn from thin air. It's so long and rambling and all over the map it's pretty difficult to break it down into any form of argument that's worth contradicting.

However, take this quote "Our society has produced young people that are not capable of surviving on their own at that age". What does that mean? Are you honestly saying that today's 16 year old is less knowledgeable and capable than his say 18th century counterpart? In what way is that true? How often were 16 year olds in 18th century societies left to survive on their own? What were they capable of doing that a child today is unable to do? We have protected children from slavery, our modern soceity does not condone the use of children in industry and severely limits their working but children who worked in the 18th century were not working for themselves and living on their own, or did you think that's what happened? I'll leave you with this thought Gary, in the 18th century your chances of surviving childhood and making it through to adulthood were exceedingly slim if you were a child of the peasantry and slim if you were a child of a noble.

As to your understanding of female reproductive development and what that 'means'. Well, I'll just say that you seem rather ignorant on that subject.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Gary one of your problems is, your pool of logic, or at least the ability to defend it is so brief and limited, it amounts to FLASH CARDS.

When someone questions -Why you have the right to a gun but not a missile or grenade, it is not enough to just say they are being silly... you must have a cogent response. To pretend no one will want a grenade is its self silly.

SOmeone laid out the case that "nature would teach us" what is moral or acceptable, I simply followed along that train of thought and you, rather than address the mans point, again flashed a card and moved on.

I usually get accused of writing too much and now it is "flash cards"

I do NOT have to have a logical answer for someone who's argument against concealed carry is "your ####### is 1/2 inch long!" Sorry, I am going to have to disagree with you on that.

I have no morals I apply to anyone else. I am a "live and let live" guy. Like a bee (some prefer to relate me to a skunk) "leave me alone and I will do the same for you". What is acceptable to me and my partner does not have to be acceptable to you. What you choose not to do in your bedroom is OK with me (but you are SO missing out!) Some of our usual behavior in our bedroom is illegal in your state, and in Alabama and Texas and maybe some other states.(which makes it more fun!) I do not want the government limiting rights, tax benefits, and legal privileges based on what I do (or someone else does) with a consenting adult(s) in my own bedroom. what others do cannot possibly have an effect on my marriage. Why would I allow it to?

I do not argue your right to do as you please, to teach your children as you please, to practice your religion as you please. I would use my privately owned firearms to defend your rights to do so to the last drop of my blood...but leave me out of it! Do NOT make those decisions for me.

And just as you and I do not like people comparing criminal behavior with that of decent folks when discussing firearms ownership...you should not do that when discussing homosexuality. Child sexual abuse is a crime, regardless whether it is ** or hetero.

[Peikko 1,575]

First of all, girls marrying at 13 and 14 have historically been very common, even in this country.

I would say girls of 14 in some cultures do seem more emotionally mature than many western women of 18, but all this is not really relevant as the question is-

Who will decide at which age different cultures can marry as the "natures standard" seems to be veering off into psyc-evaluations rather than what nature allows.

What age is too young and does your law apply to all cultures equally?

Just because something happened historically does not make it right, it quite patently wasn't right, it was abusive. We have moved beyond that way of thinking, or so I thought.

I don't understand the question, who will decide? We have already decided, as a society what the minimum age a person can legitimately give consent to marry is, why do you want to revisit it now? The age of consent is not an arbitrary age decided upon by atheists intent on 'spoiling the fun' of older men eithr Danno, nor it it something that religion helped us with. I can't believe you know so little about the history and laws of your own country Danno, it's a bit startling.

[Danno 1,228]

I usually get accused of writing too much and now it is "flash cards"

I do NOT have to have a logical answer for someone who's argument against concealed carry is "your ####### is 1/2 inch long!" Sorry, I am going to have to disagree with you on that.

I have no morals I apply to anyone else. I am a "live and let live" guy. Like a bee (some prefer to relate me to a skunk) "leave me alone and I will do the same for you". What is acceptable to me and my partner does not have to be acceptable to you. What you choose not to do in your bedroom is OK with me (but you are SO missing out!) Some of our usual behavior in our bedroom is illegal in your state, and in Alabama and Texas and maybe some other states.(which makes it more fun!) I do not want the government limiting rights, tax benefits, and legal privileges based on what I do (or someone else does) with a consenting adult(s) in my own bedroom. what others do cannot possibly have an effect on my marriage. Why would I allow it to?

I do not argue your right to do as you please, to teach your children as you please, to practice your religion as you please. I would use my privately owned firearms to defend your rights to do so to the last drop of my blood...but leave me out of it! Do NOT make those decisions for me.

And just as you and I do not like people comparing criminal behavior with that of decent folks when discussing firearms ownership...you should not do that when discussing homosexuality. Child sexual abuse is a crime, regardless whether it is ** or hetero.

Again, you flashed the card.

The conversations was about age of marriage and you again dodged that and reported on your bedroom life.

Was it wrong for Jerry Lee to marry his 14 year old Cousin?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Once again a post full of contradictions, false premise, and conclusions drawn from thin air. It's so long and rambling and all over the map it's pretty difficult to break it down into any form of argument that's worth contradicting.

However, take this quote "Our society has produced young people that are not capable of surviving on their own at that age". What does that mean? Are you honestly saying that today's 16 year old is less knowledgeable and capable than his say 18th century counterpart? In what way is that true? How often were 16 year olds in 18th century societies left to survive on their own? What were they capable of doing that a child today is unable to do? We have protected children from slavery, our modern soceity does not condone the use of children in industry and severely limits their working but children who worked in the 18th century were not working for themselves and living on their own, or did you think that's what happened? I'll leave you with this thought Gary, in the 18th century your chances of surviving childhood and making it through to adulthood were exceedingly slim if you were a child of the peasantry and slim if you were a child of a noble.

As to your understanding of female reproductive development and what that 'means'. Well, I'll just say that you seem rather ignorant on that subject.

Sorry.

Let's not argue the creationism for the moment. If you ask me religion lost its bog chance to simply claim that "god created evolution" long ago. "intelligent design" would have dictated it. God created woman and he made her reproductive at age 10-12. what does that mean? Please enlighten me.

Anyway, what my comment means is that when God created man and the next day created woman from his rib...we were an agrarian society. Picking apples off the tree may get you tossed out of Eden but it is hardly complex. A woman could survive with a very basic knowledge of gathering and crude cooking, or eating sushi...I mean someone had to be the first to eat a raw oyster!

As society became more complex it became necessary to have more education and training and more "maturity" in terms of good judgement to do things like drive a car...hold a job which was not gathering berries...etc. In some very primitive societies, still, women (girls) getting married at very young ages for the same reasons. In those societies they are "mature enough". The are not modern societies. They are "traditional" societies.

A 16 year old today is probably MORE knowledgable than an 18th century 16 year old, but still not knowledgeable enough (generally, some may be) for the modern society we created. I am bit surprised this confuses you.

I am not saying anything about the 16 years olds, I am talking about the society we created and that is far more complex that the 18th century equivilent. In 1713 the most complex machine in the house was a flintlock rifle. It was still the most complex machine in the average house 100 years later. Not recognizing that is not to recognize that the Wright brothers could not go to the moon with their first aircraft.

[Danno 1,228]

Just because something happened historically does not make it right, it quite patently wasn't right, it was abusive. We have moved beyond that way of thinking, or so I thought.

I don't understand the question, who will decide? We have already decided, as a society what the minimum age a person can legitimately give consent to marry is, why do you want to revisit it now? The age of consent is not an arbitrary age decided upon by atheists intent on 'spoiling the fun' of older men eithr Danno, nor it it something that religion helped us with. I can't believe you know so little about the history and laws of your own country Danno, it's a bit startling.

You keep wanting to fall back to a legal argument and I want you to take a stand on what is right and wrong.

Even when hiding behind the law you act as though we Americans are all in agreement, sorry States very wildly (as young as 13).

But this is not about the USA but on the matter universally heck even in Europe the age starts at 15.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age

Q: If you were king of the world, what age would you pronounce marriage and or sex to be too young?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Again, you flashed the card.

The conversations was about age of marriage and you again dodged that and reported on your bedroom life.

Was it wrong for Jerry Lee to marry his 14 year old Cousin?

well the topic of the thread was about the homophobic woman that disowned her son and I was trying to stay on that subject.

But to answer your off topic question...NO. I do not think it was wrong for Jerry Lee Lewis to marry his 14 year old cousin. It may be illegal in YOUR state, but that does not equate to being "wrong". My bedroom life relates to that. You seem to miss the point. Is what I do in the bedroom wrong? NO. Is it legal in all states? NO. Is what Jerry Lee Lewis did wrong? NO. Is it legal in all states? NO.

Jerry Lee Lewis was married to his THIRD cousin (you forgot to mention the "third" cousin part) for 23 years. Longer than any of his other 5 wives. Despite being heterosexual he was not a good example for marriage. But, hey, it happens like that sometimes. She was 13 when they got married. she had her parents permission and the marriage was legal under the laws of his state (though his divorce from his 2nd wife was not yet final...oops)

Seems like everyone was in agreement and it worked out better than most marriages. What's the problem and how does it affect me or you?

[Peikko 1,575]

Sorry.

Let's not argue the creationism for the moment. If you ask me religion lost its bog chance to simply claim that "god created evolution" long ago. "intelligent design" would have dictated it. God created woman and he made her reproductive at age 10-12. what does that mean? Please enlighten me.

Anyway, what my comment means is that when God created man and the next day created woman from his rib...we were an agrarian society. Picking apples off the tree may get you tossed out of Eden but it is hardly complex. A woman could survive with a very basic knowledge of gathering and crude cooking, or eating sushi...I mean someone had to be the first to eat a raw oyster!

As society became more complex it became necessary to have more education and training and more "maturity" in terms of good judgement to do things like drive a car...hold a job which was not gathering berries...etc. In some very primitive societies, still, women (girls) getting married at very young ages for the same reasons. In those societies they are "mature enough". The are not modern societies. They are "traditional" societies.

A 16 year old today is probably MORE knowledgable than an 18th century 16 year old, but still not knowledgeable enough (generally, some may be) for the modern society we created. I am bit surprised this confuses you.

I am not saying anything about the 16 years olds, I am talking about the society we created and that is far more complex that the 18th century equivilent. In 1713 the most complex machine in the house was a flintlock rifle. It was still the most complex machine in the average house 100 years later. Not recognizing that is not to recognize that the Wright brothers could not go to the moon with their first aircraft.

I give up, this is not an argument, it's nonsense. Adam and Eve are not historical figures. As they are not historical figures we can't place them in history so your assumption that society at the time of Adam and Eve was agrarian is nonsense.

It's also nonsense that girls in less technologically advanced societies are somehow more emotionally mature than their counterparts in a technologically complex society.

The rest of your post does not relate to any argument you're attempting to make.

[Danno 1,228]

Just because.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yRdDnrB5kM

Edited October 5, 2013 by Danno

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

You keep wanting to fall back to a legal argument and I want you to take a stand on what is right and wrong.

Even when hiding behind the law you act as though we Americans are all in agreement, sorry States very wildly (as young as 13).

But this is not about the USA but on the matter universally heck even in Europe the age starts at 15.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriageable_age

Q: If you were king of the world, what age would you pronounce marriage and or sex to be too young?

See! here is the problem. You are just like Democrats, only for different stuff. You have a belief that the government (King of the World in this case) NEEDS to be the one to pronounce what is right or wrong. I don't. You need to lose that basic premise before you can begin to understand where I take my positions. You just have different opinions of what rights the government should take away than Democrats do.

If I were King of the World I would say that "you don't need me to tell you that" My first thought would be "Am I necessary for this? Why can't people decide that for themselves?"

Our "children" (all over age 18) still do many things we want them to do (finish college before getting married) not because it is LAW but because they respect us as parents and have no reason to believe we do not have their best interests in mind. At what age will OUR children get married? Much older than the LAW requires. Do we need the LAW to tell us when they should get married? NO. Do I need a King or a Governor to tell me when they can get married? NO.

I have long contended that the government needs to get OUT of the marriage business. If a church wants to make rules about marriages performed in that church...go for it. But the government...inclduing the "King of the World" needs to keep their nose out!