Culture VS Islam

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Well, maybe not so shortly; I'm being called away now, as a prior engagment has been rescheduled. Insha'allah, I'll be able to respond tonight as I have nearly finished with examples that specifically address the questions from Jenn, Peezy and Karen_L. I am interested in offering a thoughtful resonse rather than an inflamatory one.

[sarah and hicham 3]

I must say that by this point I am thoroughly confused. A few days ago, in discussing alcohol, I got the impression that different interpretations are acceptable and that God is the judge, not other muslims.

I am confused also because I am wondering if it is ok to judge other Muslim then who is allowed to do so? What I mean is what if a new convert who hasn't read the Quran starts throwing judgements around, isn't that wrong? Who is qualified to make judgements?

I hope that makes sense.

[crazyinEgypt 0]

I must say that by this point I am thoroughly confused. A few days ago, in discussing alcohol, I got the impression that different interpretations are acceptable and that God is the judge, not other muslims.

Totally agree Jenn.....ultimatly regardless what others may think, isn't God the final judge anyway?

[crazyinEgypt 0]

Just as a gentle reminder, it is Allah who judges and accepts or not as He wishes, not us.

No one is being judged here.

what! i get a night off free from persecution?

If you want we can talk about how you went into a yahoo group knowing it was just for women and took screenshots of messages.

oh, let's not discuss this please

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Quran 9:71 - AND [as for] the believers, both men and women, they are close unto one another: they enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong, and are constant in prayer, and render the purifying dues, and pay heed unto God and His Apostle. It is they upon whom God will bestow His grace: verily, God is almighty, wise!

In Riyad as-Salihin by Imam Nawawi we find a whole chapter on prophetic tradition relating to this command.

It's all in how you do it. If you attempt to enjoin good in a manner that is abrasive, and causes the person to shut you out, you're not doing much good. But, if you approach them in a friendly, kind manner, engage them in conversation, and give your advice in a pleasant way, the good may stick.

7. Sayyidi Abd al-Ghani al-Nabulsi (Allah have mercy on him) cautions that the general Prophetic way in commanding the good and forbidding the evil is to do so in a discreet, non-specific manner, in order to preserve the honor and feelings of the one who is wrongdoing to the extent possible.

Edited December 8, 2006 by rahma

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Crazyinegypt: Totally agree Jenn.....ultimatly regardless what others may think, isn't God the final judge anyway?

There is no doubt that God is the final judge, but that does not preclude judgment on this mortal coil. That is because Islam is not only a faith of discipline and personal responsibility to God, it a faith of discipline and personal responsibility to your community. Muslims are called upon to be examples of moderation and righteousness, and to guide and direct each other on the path to God through the establishment of justice in their dealings. Allah tells us:

[3.103] And hold fast, all together, by the rope which God (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude God's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth God make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.

While there is room for individual interpretation on some matters, there are also boundaries and limitations that define you as a follower of God and His Prophets. The notion that one can do as they please with no intercession from their community, only appear before God for final Judgment is a secular one, for it advocates chaos where Islam counsels order, and the elevation of subjective desire where Islam counsels submission to the Will of God.

The fact is, Allah not only allows for judgment among Muslims as a means to keep order and instruct, He demands it of the believers, for whom He promises rewards, repeatedly so, in fact. The term "enjoin", to direct, to instruct, is one commonly used in a popular transliteration of the Arabic. Other ayat promote speaking out in God's name to prevent an injustice. A sample from among the ayat:

[3.104] Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.

[3.110] Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.

[3.114] They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

[4.105] We have sent down to thee the Book in truth, that thou might judge between men, as guided by God: so be not (used) as an advocate by those who betray their trust;

[5.47] Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

[4.135] O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well- acquainted with all that ye do.

[5.48] To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

[5.49] And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which God hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is God's purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.

[7.181] Of those We have created are people who direct (others) with truth. And dispense justice therewith.

[8.29] O ye who believe! if ye fear God, He will grant you a criterion (to judge between right and wrong), remove from you (all) evil (that may afflict) you, and forgive you: for God is the Lord of grace unbounded.

[9.67] The Hypocrites, men and women, (have an understanding) with each other: They enjoin evil, and forbid what is just, and are close with their hands. They have forgotten God; so He hath forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are rebellious and perverse.

[9.71] The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practice regular charity, and obey God and His Apostle. On them will God pour His mercy: for God is Exalted in power, Wise.

[9.112] Those that turn (to God) in repentance; that serve Him, and praise Him; that wander in devotion to the cause of God,: that bow down and prostrate themselves in prayer; that enjoin good and forbid evil; and observe the limit set by God;- (These

do rejoice). So proclaim the glad tidings to the Believers.

[22.41] (They are) those who, if We establish them in the land, establish regular prayer and give regular charity, enjoin the right and forbid wrong: with God rests the end (and decision) of (all) affairs.

[31.17] "O my son! establish regular prayer, enjoin what is just, and forbid what is wrong: and bear with patient constancy whatever betide thee; for this is firmness (of purpose) in (the conduct of) affairs.

[38.26] O David! We did indeed make thee a vicegerent on earth: so judge thou between men in truth (and justice): Nor follow thou the lusts (of thy heart), for they will mislead thee from the Path of God: for those who wander astray from the Path of God, is a Penalty Grievous, for that they forget the Day of Account.

[42.15] Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: "I believe in the Book which God has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. God is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. God will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Islam is a legalistic faith, much more relatable to Judaism in that way than to Christianity. When one approaches Islam with the paradigms of secularism, one does tend to see it as either judgemental, or as open to constant individual interpretation. It is neither.

I have to admit that when I see someone here make the claim that, in Islam, they can do as they please and no one can judge them but God, I have to grit my teeth and hold my tongue, for this an unfortunate manifestation of the secular elevation of personal desire over the Will of God; culture substituting for the tenets of the faith. It not only means that they expect to commit haram acts with no intercession by other members of their community who wish to help remind them of their duty to God, but that they impose upon other Muslims their values, thus making them accomplices to their ill deeds by their silence.

There will always be the rebellious among us. God says He will guide who He may as He may. Still, as His caliphs on this earth, charged with creating unity and order, judgment upon injustice and the abuse in practice is what we are called to do. While we are to approach the unbeliever and the hypocrite with mercy and beautiful words, we also cannot allow Islam to be represented as corrupted by those among us who do not wish to obey God.

Edited December 9, 2006 by szsz

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I am confused also because I am wondering if it is ok to judge other Muslim then who is allowed to do so? What I mean is what if a new convert who hasn't read the Quran starts throwing judgements around, isn't that wrong? Who is qualified to make judgements?

I hope that makes sense.

I can't recommend conversion to Islam prior to a indulging in a proper examination of the faith. Without that, a conversion is not worth much. I have made my views known re "convertitis" in the past. Perhaps that will suffice.

[sarah and hicham 3]

I am confused also because I am wondering if it is ok to judge other Muslim then who is allowed to do so? What I mean is what if a new convert who hasn't read the Quran starts throwing judgements around, isn't that wrong? Who is qualified to make judgements?

I hope that makes sense.

I can't recommend conversion to Islam prior to a indulging in a proper examination of the faith. Without that, a conversion is not worth much. I have made my views known re "convertitis" in the past. Perhaps that will suffice.

gotcha. I was hoping you would answer my question. Thanks!

I have a question for converts- have you all ready the Quran?

[~Jackie~ 30]

I have mine ready.

Jackie

[sarah and hicham 3]

I have mine ready.

Jackie

oopsies, I mean have you read the Quran?

Also, for converts: What qualifies you to consider yourself Muslim?

[deeshla 0]

Can anyone give specific examples of how in a Muslim community religion and culture are not seperate?

How about this for example- the concept in Iran of purdah- sheltering women inside from the view of strangers- existed in Iran long before the coing of Islam to the region. persians merely kept the concept and explained it through Islam. Today it is seem as an Islamic idea.

Or this- female circumcision in North Africa

The same is true of harem=women's quarters which of course comes from haram=frobidden, but generally is the part of the house forbidden to men, but has also, in more recent centuries become seclusion of women, and of course the 18th & 19th century Orientalist paintings and writings have since distorted the word to mean a man with several concumbines.

Dreams of Trespass goes into Fatima Mernissi's childhood household and until the French left Morocco, her family maintained a separated home. You still see it now (not just in Morocco) with gender separation in homes, parties, schools, etc which has certainly become a huge part of Islam, culturally, and in practice.

_Scheherezade Goes West_ by Mernissi also discusses this 'haram' idea in Orientalist art and literature.

Female circumcision is a good example of the culture/religion confusion -- most people in the US seem to think (mistakenly) that this is a Islamic practice.

[~Jackie~ 30]

I have read the Quran 4 times complete during the Ramadan months. (one year, I didn't finish) At the beginning of Ramadan I make a list of all the suras and cross it off when I complete it. Sometimes I skip around and sometimes I go front to back. Of course I read passages from the Quran all thru the year, but to answer your question, yes I have read it. The sura Yassen is one of my favorites. Mohammeds favorite is the sura Youseff.

What qualifies me to say I am muslim? In May 2002, I said shahada and I believe from that day forward, I am muslim, alhamdulillah. I live my life to please Allah and I practice the 5 pillars of Islam, which are the saying of shahada, the giving of charity, the belief in angels, the preparation for Hajj and daily prayers.

Jackie

[deeshla 0]

I have read the Quran 4 times complete during the Ramadan months. (one year, I didn't finish) At the beginning of Ramadan I make a list of all the suras and cross it off when I complete it. Sometimes I skip around and sometimes I go front to back. Of course I read passages from the Quran all thru the year, but to answer your question, yes I have read it. The sura Yassen is one of my favorites. Mohammeds favorite is the sura Youseff.

What qualifies me to say I am muslim? In May 2002, I said shahada and I believe from that day forward, I am muslim, alhamdulillah. I live my life to please Allah and I practice the 5 pillars of Islam, which are the saying of shahada, the giving of charity, the belief in angels, the preparation for Hajj and daily prayers.

Jackie

Isn't fasting the month of Ramadan a pillar instead of belief in angels?

[~Jackie~ 30]

Duh,,,yea I messed that up,,,the angles are a tenant of the faith. How in the world did I forget fasting ????????

Jackie