Culture VS Islam

[PlatyPius 5]

That Christmas is a secular holiday makes not a lick of sense to me. If I was Christian, I would be highly insulted by that. Taking my savior and making his Holy Day like any other party holiday is a blasphemy, imo. But, then, I've never been Christian.

The hullabaloo over Christmas is interesting, especially considering that the "holiest" day in Christianity is actually Easter, rather than Christmas. And we all know how that's celebrated.... again, the old pagan traditions coming to the forefront.

Now I want a chocolate bunny.

Haha, chocolate bunnies. In response to szsz, I suppose Christians could go around getting all offended at the fact that other people choose to give each other gifts on December 25, but what's really the point? It's a holiday that has two manifestations.

With the 'Christianity stole the pagan holidays', well, sort of. But most cultures have some sort of solstice celebrations, spring celebrations, harvest festivals. So is it an evil trick to get the pagans to abandon their religion, or is it 'if you're partying anyway, might as well make it about the right God'? I'm inclined to the latter, only because that's generally just how missionary-based religions get interpreted by local cultures.

There's a great story in Salman Rushdie's Midnight's Children about an Indian Catholic convert who asks her priest what Jesus looked like, and after some thought, he answers 'Jesus was blue.' Why? Because Gods (Krishna in particular, I think) are often depicted as blue in Hindu paintings. (The rest of the story has her laughing at the priest, 'What kind of a man is blue!')

For instance, Easter (Eostere) is the celebration of the rebirth of the Sun (Son?).

You know, this is one of those stories that makes a lot of sense until you realize than the parallel really only works in English with 'Sun' and 'son' having the same sound. Maybe German if you mispronounce it. (It doesn't work so well in Irish Gaelic, for one.) Adapting a local holiday, that I can believe. Tricking thousands of pagans into accidentally believing in the resurrection because two words in modern English sound the same, not so much. (Leaving aside the problems of determining what the pagans believed when the only people who wrote down what they did were the conquering Romans.)

In any case, most people in the United States who celebrate Christmas secularly aren't doing so because it's some ancient pagan custom. They're doing it because it's part of secular American culture.

That wasn't my point.... I just found it amusing. Birth-Death-Rebirth stories are prevalent in most religions and most cultures. They're all, IMO, based upon one original "template". What that original might be, no one really knows.

[~Jackie~ 30]

BTW those videos on Amal's website are so funny! I just watched the one on $25,000 weddings. I'm going back now to see the others. Has anyone else watched these videoclips?

Jackie

[cbd2cai 0]

Being Muslim is not for the intellectually lazy. Remember the first word revealed to the Prophet was "read".

I am sure that is true for people reading the Bible and the Torah too. Unfortunately, some of the most adamantly "islamic" countries have high illiteracy and poverty rates . . . so they either don't have the time or ability to do all the reading . . . and must rely on their local mullah for his interpretation. That's why IMO alot of what most ppl learn is more "cultural".

Of course, I could probably say the same thing for certain areas in the States where illiteracy/poverty are high . . . who do they get their information from? Lots of people rely on their local communites/churches to tell them what to do.

I took theology and philosophy classes when I attended a Catholic university and the Cistercian monks were reknowned scholars . . . some of what they taught me was to read AND think!! That has been getting me in to trouble most of my life. hehe, I thought my way to the "opposite" of what my family wanted for me religiously.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'm still confused. Being judgmental is encouraged in Islam???? If you have interpreted that wearing hijab is obligatory, it's your duty to tell others that they must wear hijab?

Judgment and judgementalism are two different things. People make judgements about right and wrong every day, based on their value system. Everyone here does it. I'm not sure why it's so shocking when someone says it's ok. The Quran says it's ok for us t judge on the basis of its value system. We wouldn't be good Muslims if we just let everything slide.

However . . .

I'm not trying to start any ####### in here, I'm really not. But I read this and it explained some things for me. If this is truly the belief of Muslims; that they are obligated to judge others, then it certainly explains the mindset of terrorists. Being American and raised as a Xian (long-abandoned, but still a major thing while growing up), I haven't been able to understand the concept of "You are evil, I must now kill you." Now, at least, I can understand it a little more.

This is quite a stretch taken from what I said. Terrorism is not a valid outcome of the allowance to judge. Since platypus made a judegment in this statement, it is clear that s/he uses judegment in his/her thinking, as does anyone. That does not make him/her a terrorist than it does any thinking person. Judementalism, not mere judegment, is be one factor involved in creating the midset of a terrorist, they do not have permission from the Quran for their deeds.

[Together4ever 1]

That wasn't my point.... I just found it amusing. Birth-Death-Rebirth stories are prevalent in most religions and most cultures. They're all, IMO, based upon one original "template". What that original might be, no one really knows.

That template is called "concept".

[Jenn! 918]

I'm still confused. Being judgmental is encouraged in Islam???? If you have interpreted that wearing hijab is obligatory, it's your duty to tell others that they must wear hijab?

Judgment and judgementalism are two different things. People make judgements about right and wrong every day, based on their value system. Everyone here does it. I'm not sure why it's so shocking when someone says it's ok. The Quran says it's ok for us t judge on the basis of its value system. We wouldn't be good Muslims if we just let everything slide.

There's a difference in saying "You are not being a good muslim if you drink." and "My interpretation of Islam leads me to conclude that drinking is forbidden."

So being a good muslim means telling other when they are not being good muslims, then? Ok, not really "shocking", but pretty distasteful to me.

ETA: And since it is clear that culture and religion are so intertwined. Making judgments about other muslims' behavior could mean that you are trying to impose your culture.

Edited December 8, 2006 by jenn3539

[Karen_L 1]

I'm going to try to be careful here and try not to start something bad. Christmas, I believe, started as a holiday when ppl celebrated mother earth and all that stuff. Christians took that holiday and incorporated it to the celebration of Jesus' birthday. Therefore, ppl can celebrate with a tree, gifts, decorations of winter, or whatever .. and they're not doing anything wrong in my book. Before reverting, I never did agree with the way Christmas was celebrated. I always felt that we lost the meaning of Christmas by overshadowing it with gifts and pretty lights. And also the fact that Jesus wasn't born on December 25 has always confused me. Why celebrate his birthday on a day that he wasn't born? I would bring that up each year and my family would say..well at least we celebrate it...that never sat well with me.... anyway.... no, I"ll stop there....

Jesus' birthday is celebrated in December because doing so, astrologically, gives Him a very good reading. I'm being completely serious here too. It was calculated by ancient scholars that Dec. 25th is a good day to be born astrologically. Also, it was traditionally the birthday or feast day of the Egyptian Sun God (Ra?) and probably around the time of a million other pre-Christian festivals. That's one of the things I find interesting about Christianity -- I don't think the incorporated pagan elements are weaknesses, but strengths. Why should ancient wisdom by forgotten just because it's "pagan"?

For the secularization of Christmas... I don't think it will ever be possible to completely remove the Christian elements from the holiday, no matter how many stores are forced to wish people a "Happy Holiday" instead. Everyone knows that we wouldn't be celebrating Christmas if not for Christ having at some point been born lol. Even if Jesus wasn't actually born on Dec. 25th, The Year Zero, imo, the holiday celebrates that He WAS born and that he began his ministry on Earth in a auspicious way. Also, the fact that fun and Good Times are associated with His birth is kind of cool and kind of spiritual in its own way, imo, even if it isn't very religious or solumn. It's an enjoyable holiday esp. when religion is often WAAAAY too serious. I mean -- who doesn't like colorful lights? lol

[sarachid 0]

Better or worse how? In the U.S., Christmas is also a secular holiday, so it would be possible to celebrate it in that context.

The spaghetti straps and hijab thing doesn't make sense to me, but I'm not Muslim, and I could see someone interpreting the requirement differently or in the context of American culture. (E.g., if the requirement is construed as 'be more modest than the culture around you.')

That Christmas is a secular holiday makes not a lick of sense to me. If I was Christian, I would be highly insulted by that. Taking my savior and making his Holy Day like any other party holiday is a blasphemy, imo. But, then, I've never been Christian.

Just as a gentle reminder, it is Allah who judges and accepts or not as He wishes, not us.

Muslims are required to judge sin, as well. It is not true that Muslims cannot judge; the Quran tells us to do so when it says that believers enjoin the good and reject the evil and that we are protectors of one another. There would be no point in having Islamic law, abiding by Allah's commands, or forming an ummah based on doing justice if there was no judgement that Muslims could make upon each other. Islam is not simply a faith between you and God, but a faith that binds you to a covenent with your faith community. Only God can judge who will enter heaven, but we are intended to provide guidance to each other, and that requires making judgments about right and wrong.

that was a great point... and well said

In short, the notion that we are not to judge is an example of a western cultural trait that is mistaken for a tenet of Islam.

[peezey 0]

I'm still confused. Being judgmental is encouraged in Islam???? If you have interpreted that wearing hijab is obligatory, it's your duty to tell others that they must wear hijab?

Judgment and judgementalism are two different things. People make judgements about right and wrong every day, based on their value system. Everyone here does it. I'm not sure why it's so shocking when someone says it's ok. The Quran says it's ok for us t judge on the basis of its value system. We wouldn't be good Muslims if we just let everything slide.

However . . .

I'm not trying to start any ####### in here, I'm really not. But I read this and it explained some things for me. If this is truly the belief of Muslims; that they are obligated to judge others, then it certainly explains the mindset of terrorists. Being American and raised as a Xian (long-abandoned, but still a major thing while growing up), I haven't been able to understand the concept of "You are evil, I must now kill you." Now, at least, I can understand it a little more.

This is quite a stretch taken from what I said. Terrorism is not a valid outcome of the allowance to judge. Since platypus made a judegment in this statement, it is clear that s/he uses judegment in his/her thinking, as does anyone. That does not make him/her a terrorist than it does any thinking person. Judementalism, not mere judegment, is be one factor involved in creating the midset of a terrorist, they do not have permission from the Quran for their deeds.

I know intellectually this is the case, but this idea seems widely misused. Can you give a real-life example? I'm in the same boat as Jenn, trying hard to see how one would abide by this tenet of Islam.

[Karen_L 1]

I'm still confused. Being judgmental is encouraged in Islam???? If you have interpreted that wearing hijab is obligatory, it's your duty to tell others that they must wear hijab?

Judgment and judgementalism are two different things. People make judgements about right and wrong every day, based on their value system. Everyone here does it. I'm not sure why it's so shocking when someone says it's ok. The Quran says it's ok for us t judge on the basis of its value system. We wouldn't be good Muslims if we just let everything slide.

However . . .

I'm not trying to start any ####### in here, I'm really not. But I read this and it explained some things for me. If this is truly the belief of Muslims; that they are obligated to judge others, then it certainly explains the mindset of terrorists. Being American and raised as a Xian (long-abandoned, but still a major thing while growing up), I haven't been able to understand the concept of "You are evil, I must now kill you." Now, at least, I can understand it a little more.

This is quite a stretch taken from what I said. Terrorism is not a valid outcome of the allowance to judge. Since platypus made a judegment in this statement, it is clear that s/he uses judegment in his/her thinking, as does anyone. That does not make him/her a terrorist than it does any thinking person. Judementalism, not mere judegment, is be one factor involved in creating the midset of a terrorist, they do not have permission from the Quran for their deeds.

I know intellectually this is the case, but this idea seems widely misused. Can you give a real-life example? I'm in the same boat as Jenn, trying hard to see how one would abide by this tenet of Islam.

Judgement, as I understand SZSZ, is like... making moral decisions based on situations. For instance, if a group of people you know go out to, say, a strip club, using moral judgement to determine if this is good or bad for you would be to say "this behaviors goes against what I think it correct, so I will abstain from it." The person could even say "I don't think this is a very good thing to do." Judgementalism would be claiming constant moral superiority to this group of people and considering yourself above normal human fallacies based on your belief system. I also think Judgementalism involves alienating people who disagree with you, whereas Judgement would be personal but also outwardly more or less gentle to other people.

[peezey 0]

I'm still confused. Being judgmental is encouraged in Islam???? If you have interpreted that wearing hijab is obligatory, it's your duty to tell others that they must wear hijab?

Judgment and judgementalism are two different things. People make judgements about right and wrong every day, based on their value system. Everyone here does it. I'm not sure why it's so shocking when someone says it's ok. The Quran says it's ok for us t judge on the basis of its value system. We wouldn't be good Muslims if we just let everything slide.

However . . .

I'm not trying to start any ####### in here, I'm really not. But I read this and it explained some things for me. If this is truly the belief of Muslims; that they are obligated to judge others, then it certainly explains the mindset of terrorists. Being American and raised as a Xian (long-abandoned, but still a major thing while growing up), I haven't been able to understand the concept of "You are evil, I must now kill you." Now, at least, I can understand it a little more.

This is quite a stretch taken from what I said. Terrorism is not a valid outcome of the allowance to judge. Since platypus made a judegment in this statement, it is clear that s/he uses judegment in his/her thinking, as does anyone. That does not make him/her a terrorist than it does any thinking person. Judementalism, not mere judegment, is be one factor involved in creating the midset of a terrorist, they do not have permission from the Quran for their deeds.

I know intellectually this is the case, but this idea seems widely misused. Can you give a real-life example? I'm in the same boat as Jenn, trying hard to see how one would abide by this tenet of Islam.

Judgement, as I understand SZSZ, is like... making moral decisions based on situations. For instance, if a group of people you know go out to, say, a strip club, using moral judgement to determine if this is good or bad for you would be to say "this behaviors goes against what I think it correct, so I will abstain from it." The person could even say "I don't think this is a very good thing to do." Judgementalism would be claiming constant moral superiority to this group of people and considering yourself above normal human fallacies based on your belief system. I also think Judgementalism involves alienating people who disagree with you, whereas Judgement would be personal but also outwardly more or less gentle to other people.

This is how I see it, too, but not what I necessarily took from szsz's post.

[Jenn! 918]

I'm still confused. Being judgmental is encouraged in Islam???? If you have interpreted that wearing hijab is obligatory, it's your duty to tell others that they must wear hijab?

Judgment and judgementalism are two different things. People make judgements about right and wrong every day, based on their value system. Everyone here does it. I'm not sure why it's so shocking when someone says it's ok. The Quran says it's ok for us t judge on the basis of its value system. We wouldn't be good Muslims if we just let everything slide.

However . . .

I'm not trying to start any ####### in here, I'm really not. But I read this and it explained some things for me. If this is truly the belief of Muslims; that they are obligated to judge others, then it certainly explains the mindset of terrorists. Being American and raised as a Xian (long-abandoned, but still a major thing while growing up), I haven't been able to understand the concept of "You are evil, I must now kill you." Now, at least, I can understand it a little more.

This is quite a stretch taken from what I said. Terrorism is not a valid outcome of the allowance to judge. Since platypus made a judegment in this statement, it is clear that s/he uses judegment in his/her thinking, as does anyone. That does not make him/her a terrorist than it does any thinking person. Judementalism, not mere judegment, is be one factor involved in creating the midset of a terrorist, they do not have permission from the Quran for their deeds.

I know intellectually this is the case, but this idea seems widely misused. Can you give a real-life example? I'm in the same boat as Jenn, trying hard to see how one would abide by this tenet of Islam.

Judgement, as I understand SZSZ, is like... making moral decisions based on situations. For instance, if a group of people you know go out to, say, a strip club, using moral judgement to determine if this is good or bad for you would be to say "this behaviors goes against what I think it correct, so I will abstain from it." The person could even say "I don't think this is a very good thing to do." Judgementalism would be claiming constant moral superiority to this group of people and considering yourself above normal human fallacies based on your belief system. I also think Judgementalism involves alienating people who disagree with you, whereas Judgement would be personal but also outwardly more or less gentle to other people.

Yes, that makes sense, Karen. Maybe what is confusing me is that szsz said, "In short, the notion that we are not to judge is an example of a western cultural trait that is mistaken for a tenet of Islam."

From what you've said, I don't believe it is a western cultural trait to not judge, but rather to not be judgmental.

szsz also said, "We wouldn't be good Muslims if we just let everything slide."

To me, "let everything slide" means allowing other muslims to behave according to their own interpretation. To me this implies the judgmentalism as opposed to judgment as you described above.

[Karen_L 1]

I'm still confused. Being judgmental is encouraged in Islam???? If you have interpreted that wearing hijab is obligatory, it's your duty to tell others that they must wear hijab?

Judgment and judgementalism are two different things. People make judgements about right and wrong every day, based on their value system. Everyone here does it. I'm not sure why it's so shocking when someone says it's ok. The Quran says it's ok for us t judge on the basis of its value system. We wouldn't be good Muslims if we just let everything slide.

However . . .

I'm not trying to start any ####### in here, I'm really not. But I read this and it explained some things for me. If this is truly the belief of Muslims; that they are obligated to judge others, then it certainly explains the mindset of terrorists. Being American and raised as a Xian (long-abandoned, but still a major thing while growing up), I haven't been able to understand the concept of "You are evil, I must now kill you." Now, at least, I can understand it a little more.

This is quite a stretch taken from what I said. Terrorism is not a valid outcome of the allowance to judge. Since platypus made a judegment in this statement, it is clear that s/he uses judegment in his/her thinking, as does anyone. That does not make him/her a terrorist than it does any thinking person. Judementalism, not mere judegment, is be one factor involved in creating the midset of a terrorist, they do not have permission from the Quran for their deeds.

I know intellectually this is the case, but this idea seems widely misused. Can you give a real-life example? I'm in the same boat as Jenn, trying hard to see how one would abide by this tenet of Islam.

Judgement, as I understand SZSZ, is like... making moral decisions based on situations. For instance, if a group of people you know go out to, say, a strip club, using moral judgement to determine if this is good or bad for you would be to say "this behaviors goes against what I think it correct, so I will abstain from it." The person could even say "I don't think this is a very good thing to do." Judgementalism would be claiming constant moral superiority to this group of people and considering yourself above normal human fallacies based on your belief system. I also think Judgementalism involves alienating people who disagree with you, whereas Judgement would be personal but also outwardly more or less gentle to other people.

Yes, that makes sense, Karen. Maybe what is confusing me is that szsz said, "In short, the notion that we are not to judge is an example of a western cultural trait that is mistaken for a tenet of Islam."

From what you've said, I don't believe it is a western cultural trait to not judge, but rather to not be judgmental.

szsz also said, "We wouldn't be good Muslims if we just let everything slide."

To me, "let everything slide" means allowing other muslims to behave according to their own interpretation. To me this implies the judgmentalism as opposed to judgment as you described above.

I remember a similar discussion a few months ago. It was about whether or not there are fundamental rights/wrongs. I remember szsz saying that not every opinion can possibly be valid or else many horrible things are justifiable (sorry I'm paraphrasing your words, szsz!) I took those statements to mean that there are some fundamental principles that people must agree with to call themselves Muslims (or Christians or whatever), which maybe has nothing to do with clothing or what t eat/not to eat. Things like... murder is wrong, abandoning responsibilities is wrong, sexual abuse, purposely providing misinformation, etc, things that effect the larger community and things that any person who believes in a loving God can support. Using good judgement can prevent these kinds of wrongs, but being Judgemental can often compound them or put smaller issues on the level of these larger issues.

[Jenn! 918]

I took those statements to mean that there are some fundamental principles that people must agree with to call themselves Muslims (or Christians or whatever), which maybe has nothing to do with clothing or what t eat/not to eat.

Like peezey said, I think an example will help.

Maybe the point is that certain things are open to interpretation, but others are not. That seems reasonable to me.

All goes back to the black/white/gray issue....

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'm preparing an answer to your questions about my post and will return shortly with a response that, insha'allah, will satisfy you all.