Culture VS Islam

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

That Christmas is a secular holiday makes not a lick of sense to me. If I was Christian, I would be highly insulted by that. Taking my savior and making his Holy Day like any other party holiday is a blasphemy, imo. But, then, I've never been Christian.

The hullabaloo over Christmas is interesting, especially considering that the "holiest" day in Christianity is actually Easter, rather than Christmas. And we all know how that's celebrated.... again, the old pagan traditions coming to the forefront.

Now I want a chocolate bunny.

[mybackpages 0]

Sarah- I know I am mgoing to open a can of worms, but thinking more about your question, I think hijab itself is an example of where relion and culture get confused.

To me there is no question that Islam talks abotu modesty, but why should I wear Arab-style hijab to look modest? (see this is where the can of worms is opened and someone who does dress this way will take offense to what I have just said abotu me and my opinion). Why is covering my hair a requirement for modesty? I completely understand why many women wear the scarf and say more power to them, but I think their interpretation is only that. The Prophet told the women to draw their clothing across their bodies not go out an dbuy new kinds of outfits. Maybe I am looking at it in a simplistic way, a prejudicial way- but Islam is meant to transcend all cultures not become tied up in the local practices.

[PlatyPius 5]

Better or worse how? In the U.S., Christmas is also a secular holiday, so it would be possible to celebrate it in that context.

The spaghetti straps and hijab thing doesn't make sense to me, but I'm not Muslim, and I could see someone interpreting the requirement differently or in the context of American culture. (E.g., if the requirement is construed as 'be more modest than the culture around you.')

That Christmas is a secular holiday makes not a lick of sense to me. If I was Christian, I would be highly insulted by that. Taking my savior and making his Holy Day like any other party holiday is a blasphemy, imo. But, then, I've never been Christian.

Just as a gentle reminder, it is Allah who judges and accepts or not as He wishes, not us.

Muslims are required to judge sin, as well. It is not true that Muslims cannot judge; the Quran tells us to do so when it says that believers enjoin the good and reject the evil and that we are protectors of one another. There would be no point in having Islamic law, abiding by Allah's commands, or forming an ummah based on doing justice if there was no judgement that Muslims could make upon each other. Islam is not simply a faith between you and God, but a faith that binds you to a covenent with your faith community. Only God can judge who will enter heaven, but we are intended to provide guidance to each other, and that requires making judgments about right and wrong.

In short, the notion that we are not to judge is an example of a western cultural trait that is mistaken for a tenet of Islam.

I'm not trying to start any ####### in here, I'm really not. But I read this and it explained some things for me. If this is truly the belief of Muslims; that they are obligated to judge others, then it certainly explains the mindset of terrorists. Being American and raised as a Xian (long-abandoned, but still a major thing while growing up), I haven't been able to understand the concept of "You are evil, I must now kill you." Now, at least, I can understand it a little more.

As for Christmas....

As far as I have been able to deduce from my research into it, Christmas usurped Yule in the Celtic countries; as mentioned, for convenience. Yule, in the Celtic sense, "borrowed" traditions from the Norse. Until they had significant contact with the Nordic peoples, the Celts didn't have a Yule celebration. The Yule tree, Yule log, and all of the trappings of "Christmas" came from the traditions of the Nordic/Germanic people. When the forced conversion to xianity was in full swing, the Church changed some holidays/stories to coincide with the pre-existing Pagan celebrations/stories. For instance, Easter (Eostere) is the celebration of the rebirth of the Sun (Son?).

Santa Claus - Originally Sinter Klaus or Sinterklaas.

"...the likeness of Santa Claus can actually be traced back far before the birth of Christ with the Norse god, Thor. Thor was the god of the sun, fire and lightning, with an altar that existed in nearly every home in the world in the form of a fireplace. Each year on his birthday, Yuletide Dec. 25, he would slide down the chimney into his element of fire and would put gifts in the drying shoes that children had left behind (especially good children would receive coal to help keep warm). Thor was always depicted as wearing furs in the colors of fire (red) and snow (white), and he was supposedly elderly and heavy with a long white beard. He had a palace in “northland” and he rode through the air in a sled pulled by two flying goats, named Gnasher and Crasher. Thor became known as “Klaus of the cinders” or Sinter Klaus, because children believed he would have to be singed just a bit in order to come through the flaming fire in mid-winter."

http://www.mtulodearchives.com/index.php?i...&artid=4920

[Bosco 1]

Just as a gentle reminder, it is Allah who judges and accepts or not as He wishes, not us.

No one is being judged here.

And I never said anyone was.

So then what is the reminder for?

I thought Melly was on point. Amal said "not accepted by God", in particular related to hijab with revealing clothing. I thought Melly was merely pointing out while we can take guesses at what God may or may not accept, speculate based on our interpretations, none of us really know. It also conveys a God of judgement and scrutiny over items like clothing - and certainly not everyone agrees with this interpretation.

[Henia 11]

I just love Ummah Films clips... Very funny way this brother Ali shares his dawah! Thanks for sharing this Amal.

I think there is fine line between religion and culture when you come from a country that is dominated by their religion. You find more culture then religion. As the clip said "the modified version" is taught... so the true meaning is totally lost.

True, very true... I have been wrong about a couple things that I thought were religious and they were really cultural and vice versa... It can get cornfuzzied so easily sometimes.

That is why ALL lessons you are taught should be back up by authenicated sources !!!!! Unforuntately there are still some ppl out there who get their religion from the back of cracker jack boxes (no I am just kidding)...No seriously from unreliabel sources, including family members and friends... I SAY and I am sure ALL would agree no matter religion you are...that religion should be taken from the BOOKS!

[Henia 11]

I don't think it is that difficult but it is the outsider's viewpoint that confuses culture with religion. that is just my opinion though...

I think it is just as often the insider's viewpoint that muddies things. The two have been mixed so long they no longer see the difference. The outside looks in with fresh eyes.

good point Bosco! Thanks! I think the video is a good reminder to ppl of all religions to take a step back and re-evaluate what they are doing... Are their actions cultural or religious... Are they giving the right message about their religion??..... I love Ummah Films!

What would be an example of this?

Someone not wearing hijab in American because they may stick out or feel uncomfortable?

Wooooa Sarah opening up a whole new can of worms!

[melly 0]

Just as a gentle reminder, it is Allah who judges and accepts or not as He wishes, not us.

No one is being judged here.

And I never said anyone was.

So then what is the reminder for?

I thought Melly was on point. Amal said "not accepted by God", in particular related to hijab with revealing clothing. I thought Melly was merely pointing out while we can take guesses at what God may or may not accept, speculate based on our interpretations, none of us really know. It also conveys a God of judgement and scrutiny over items like clothing - and certainly not everyone agrees with this interpretation.

Exactly! Thank you.

[Jenn! 918]

I must say that by this point I am thoroughly confused. A few days ago, in discussing alcohol, I got the impression that different interpretations are acceptable and that God is the judge, not other muslims.

[mybackpages 0]

Sarah- I know I am mgoing to open a can of worms, but thinking more about your question, I think hijab itself is an example of where relion and culture get confused.

To me there is no question that Islam talks abotu modesty, but why should I wear Arab-style hijab to look modest? (see this is where the can of worms is opened and someone who does dress this way will take offense to what I have just said abotu me and my opinion). Why is covering my hair a requirement for modesty? I completely understand why many women wear the scarf and say more power to them, but I think their interpretation is only that. The Prophet told the women to draw their clothing across their bodies not go out an dbuy new kinds of outfits. Maybe I am looking at it in a simplistic way, a prejudicial way- but Islam is meant to transcend all cultures not become tied up in the local practices.

I'm replying to my own post because i was too late to edit. I really do not want to discuss the validity of hijab ( that's been done too much here), but I do want to add this:

The Quran is our source of religious knowledge. Hadiths or sayings of the Prophet are secondary sources. I have studied Islamic jurisprudence and there is a very specific scholarship to decide which hadiths are authentic and which are not. So many hadiths have been accepted as valid, but which scholarship shows they may not be. Understanding the Quran is also tricky because many of the verses are relavations revealed in a specific historical context. So not only do you need to understand the verse, but you need to understand when and why it was revealed.

Being Muslim is not for the intellectually lazy. Remember the first word revealed to the Prophet was "read".

[Caladan 19]

That Christmas is a secular holiday makes not a lick of sense to me. If I was Christian, I would be highly insulted by that. Taking my savior and making his Holy Day like any other party holiday is a blasphemy, imo. But, then, I've never been Christian.

The hullabaloo over Christmas is interesting, especially considering that the "holiest" day in Christianity is actually Easter, rather than Christmas. And we all know how that's celebrated.... again, the old pagan traditions coming to the forefront.

Now I want a chocolate bunny.

Haha, chocolate bunnies. In response to szsz, I suppose Christians could go around getting all offended at the fact that other people choose to give each other gifts on December 25, but what's really the point? It's a holiday that has two manifestations.

With the 'Christianity stole the pagan holidays', well, sort of. But most cultures have some sort of solstice celebrations, spring celebrations, harvest festivals. So is it an evil trick to get the pagans to abandon their religion, or is it 'if you're partying anyway, might as well make it about the right God'? I'm inclined to the latter, only because that's generally just how missionary-based religions get interpreted by local cultures.

There's a great story in Salman Rushdie's Midnight's Children about an Indian Catholic convert who asks her priest what Jesus looked like, and after some thought, he answers 'Jesus was blue.' Why? Because Gods (Krishna in particular, I think) are often depicted as blue in Hindu paintings. (The rest of the story has her laughing at the priest, 'What kind of a man is blue!')

For instance, Easter (Eostere) is the celebration of the rebirth of the Sun (Son?).

You know, this is one of those stories that makes a lot of sense until you realize than the parallel really only works in English with 'Sun' and 'son' having the same sound. Maybe German if you mispronounce it. (It doesn't work so well in Irish Gaelic, for one.) Adapting a local holiday, that I can believe. Tricking thousands of pagans into accidentally believing in the resurrection because two words in modern English sound the same, not so much. (Leaving aside the problems of determining what the pagans believed when the only people who wrote down what they did were the conquering Romans.)

In any case, most people in the United States who celebrate Christmas secularly aren't doing so because it's some ancient pagan custom. They're doing it because it's part of secular American culture.

[peezey 0]

Can anyone give specific examples of how in a Muslim community religion and culture are not seperate?

How about this for example- the concept in Iran of purdah- sheltering women inside from the view of strangers- existed in Iran long before the coing of Islam to the region. persians merely kept the concept and explained it through Islam. Today it is seem as an Islamic idea.

Or this- female circumcision in North Africa

The same is true of harem=women's quarters which of course comes from haram=frobidden, but generally is the part of the house forbidden to men, but has also, in more recent centuries become seclusion of women, and of course the 18th & 19th century Orientalist paintings and writings have since distorted the word to mean a man with several concumbines.

Dreams of Trespass goes into Fatima Mernissi's childhood household and until the French left Morocco, her family maintained a separated home. You still see it now (not just in Morocco) with gender separation in homes, parties, schools, etc which has certainly become a huge part of Islam, culturally, and in practice.

Edited December 8, 2006 by peezey

[~Jackie~ 30]

Great thread Amal! 54 posts and no one is verbally injured yet! It is refreshing to see valid points being made, as we can all learn from this discussion.

Jackie

[peezey 0]

Sarah- I know I am mgoing to open a can of worms, but thinking more about your question, I think hijab itself is an example of where relion and culture get confused.

To me there is no question that Islam talks abotu modesty, but why should I wear Arab-style hijab to look modest? (see this is where the can of worms is opened and someone who does dress this way will take offense to what I have just said abotu me and my opinion). Why is covering my hair a requirement for modesty? I completely understand why many women wear the scarf and say more power to them, but I think their interpretation is only that. The Prophet told the women to draw their clothing across their bodies not go out an dbuy new kinds of outfits. Maybe I am looking at it in a simplistic way, a prejudicial way- but Islam is meant to transcend all cultures not become tied up in the local practices.

I'm not sure if you are talking to me, but I'll still answer. I totally agree. Not only with what you've mentioned here, but my issue with hijab (chador, naqib, burqa) is, of course, that it is something for women only to be covered from head to toe. In Islam, men are to be modest as well, but their faces are not covered, hair isn't completely covered, and I am especially irked when I go to Target and see a woman in full hijab, in all black, swathed in 20 yards of fabric, her mouth covered and her husband walking beside her in jeans & a polo. I have no idea how these choices were made in their household, but it never fails that I have to hold my tongue and not walk over and interview them, because I am seriously curious about it. And it's not just a women's freedom thing to me. I also consider men to be humans with brains, so I find it very demeaning to men to assert that women must be covered in this way, or even just their hair, to not intrigue men. But then someone will argue, well, I cover so only my husband can see my feminine bits....but hair? Again, it's saying that hair is so sexy it cannot be revealed to others. Again, why is a woman's hair different than a man's in a religion that obliges both sexes to be modest?

[peezey 0]

Just as a gentle reminder, it is Allah who judges and accepts or not as He wishes, not us.

No one is being judged here.

And I never said anyone was.

So then what is the reminder for?

I thought Melly was on point. Amal said "not accepted by God", in particular related to hijab with revealing clothing. I thought Melly was merely pointing out while we can take guesses at what God may or may not accept, speculate based on our interpretations, none of us really know. It also conveys a God of judgement and scrutiny over items like clothing - and certainly not everyone agrees with this interpretation.

Thanks, I was confused, too, since a particular post was not referenced.

[Jenn! 918]

I'm still confused. Being judgmental is encouraged in Islam???? If you have interpreted that wearing hijab is obligatory, it's your duty to tell others that they must wear hijab?