Culture VS Islam

[sarah and hicham 3]

First, I want to say thanks for keeping this thread civil. I have really learned a lot from all of your opinions.

Sarah- I know I am mgoing to open a can of worms, but thinking more about your question, I think hijab itself is an example of where relion and culture get confused.

To me there is no question that Islam talks abotu modesty, but why should I wear Arab-style hijab to look modest? (see this is where the can of worms is opened and someone who does dress this way will take offense to what I have just said abotu me and my opinion). Why is covering my hair a requirement for modesty? I completely understand why many women wear the scarf and say more power to them, but I think their interpretation is only that. The Prophet told the women to draw their clothing across their bodies not go out an dbuy new kinds of outfits. Maybe I am looking at it in a simplistic way, a prejudicial way- but Islam is meant to transcend all cultures not become tied up in the local practices.

I'm not sure if you are talking to me, but I'll still answer. I totally agree. Not only with what you've mentioned here, but my issue with hijab (chador, naqib, burqa) is, of course, that it is something for women only to be covered from head to toe. In Islam, men are to be modest as well, but their faces are not covered, hair isn't completely covered, and I am especially irked when I go to Target and see a woman in full hijab, in all black, swathed in 20 yards of fabric, her mouth covered and her husband walking beside her in jeans & a polo. I have no idea how these choices were made in their household, but it never fails that I have to hold my tongue and not walk over and interview them, because I am seriously curious about it. And it's not just a women's freedom thing to me. I also consider men to be humans with brains, so I find it very demeaning to men to assert that women must be covered in this way, or even just their hair, to not intrigue men. But then someone will argue, well, I cover so only my husband can see my feminine bits....but hair? Again, it's saying that hair is so sexy it cannot be revealed to others. Again, why is a woman's hair different than a man's in a religion that obliges both sexes to be modest?

This answer is for me. I am not speaking on the way anybody else believes on this matter...just myself. ok, now that I have cleared the path...I'll begin.

For myself, I think it is great to cover the hair via hijab and I'll tell you why. We spend so much time trying to fix our hair to look just right so we can feel beautiful ... and for what? So other men can look at us and think we're beautiful? .. For me, that is wrong. I don't want any man to see me and think about me in that way other than my husband. As far as the other "allowed" men .. they are family and are not going to see me in a sexual way so that is not an issue. Hijab is a way of protecting a womans right to just be herself without having to look a certain way or maintain the current style. She can just be herself and spend her time thinking about other things rather than her appearance. NOW... about men having to cover... I believe (again, just me and not saying anybody else feels the same way) men look at each part of a woman in a sexual way .. from hair to shoulders to hips to toes. Women see men in a sexy way as well but not with as much intensity as men see women. (there are always exceptions to each rule...so yeah there are women who see a bicep of a man and about pass out from lust) .... anyway.... men look at things like hair , body type, etc to base their decision on wether they think the woman is attractive or not. If the woman wears hijab, doesn't the man have to get to know the woman on the inside rather than the outside? I think the answer to that is yes and I like the idea of them getting to know me for me and not for my beauty. (again, just my own opinion)

This sounds *verbatim* like what Moroccan men told me all the time about hijab (not all men, just the few that wanted to convince me to wear it, derr!). Was this your opinion before your marriage as well?

I think this is a very narrow way to look at relations between men and women, too Animal Kingdom for me. Women don't always fix their hair for men's benefit -- we do it for ourselves, our self-confidence, our style, to be professional, etc...

A man that is looking at my toes sexually is a couple notches down the IQ totem pole, IMO.

I agree with you Deeshla.

amal why are you making excuses for men? NO matter how many times you say this is not what your husband says and that it is just your opinion I just don't believe it, sorry. What you wrote sounds like it came straight from the mouth of a man.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Sarah, it certainly could be the case that amal came to the decision to wear hijab from sources other than her husband. No matter the reasoning used to explain why they should do so, there is a lot of pressure on Muslimas, especially Muslima converts, to cover their hair. There's also a lot of pressure on men to have "their women" cover in order to show that they are able to maintain authority over them. In many segments of Muslim society, a man is not a man unless he can control at least one woman (a white, western woman = more points). I'm not saying that this is the situation with amal or any other woman who wears hijab. I'm just saying that the emphasis on hijab is political (Islam = Arab) as well as social (men are qawaam over women), a means of demonstrating Muslim "wins" over western norms. Both men and woman are feeling the need to comply. That is especially true if they are active in a Muslim community.

Please, don't be so hard on her. This is not unusual.

[sarah and hicham 3]

Sarah, it certainly could be the case that amal came to the decision to wear hijab from sources other than her husband. No matter the reasoning used to explain why they should do so, there is a lot of pressure on Muslimas, especially Muslima converts, to cover their hair. There's also a lot of pressure on men to have "their women" cover in order to show that they are able to maintain authority over them. In many segments of Muslim society, a man is not a man unless he can control at least one woman (a white, western woman = more points). I'm not saying that this is the situation with amal or any other woman who wears hijab. I'm just saying that the emphasis on hijab is political (Islam = Arab) as well as social (men are qawaam over women), a means of demonstrating Muslim "wins" over western norms. Both men and woman are feeling the need to comply. That is especially true if they are active in a Muslim community.

Please, don't be so hard on her. This is not unusual.

I am not being hard on her and I am not the only one who expressed this opinion.

She is sharing her thoughts on the matter and that's what it sounds like to me. I just wonder how all these years someone doesn't cover then all of a sudden it's wrong to let a man see you.

It's just a large leap in my mind.

Sarah

[sarah and hicham 3]

szsz I know you don't want to touch hijab with a ten foot pole but I just wanted to ask you your opinion on why western women wear hijab if there is nothing about it in the Quran. I am not asking if it's right or wrong to wear it, just asking where they get this thought or information that it's good to cover their hair.

Thanks as usual,

Sarah

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I am not being hard on her and I am not the only one who expressed this opinion.

She is sharing her thoughts on the matter and that's what it sounds like to me. I just wonder how all these years someone doesn't cover then all of a sudden it's wrong to let a man see you.

It's just a large leap in my mind.

Sarah

Another way to think of it is how the same men who we're expected to protect from their animal urges manage to remain in control of their raging hormones around the majority of uncovered hairy women. But, all of a sudden, when they're around Muslim women, they can't handle hair.

Still, it does little good to argue about it since it's a choice and this is the choice some make for whatever reason. If it really makes amal and her husband happy that she wears hijab, no harm done.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

szsz I know you don't want to touch hijab with a ten foot pole but I just wanted to ask you your opinion on why western women wear hijab if there is nothing about it in the Quran. I am not asking if it's right or wrong to wear it, just asking where they get this thought or information that it's good to cover their hair.

Thanks as usual,

Sarah

Well, it's what I was saying before; the pressure to cover is enormous. Hijab is sold and sold like a miracle cure for all of societies ills. If all women covered, men would show more respect. If all women covered, there would be less lusting and rape. If women covered, there would be world peace. The reasoning about it is endless.

I'll post some links to info about hijab in a minute so you can see what I mean.

[sarah and hicham 3]

I am not being hard on her and I am not the only one who expressed this opinion.

She is sharing her thoughts on the matter and that's what it sounds like to me. I just wonder how all these years someone doesn't cover then all of a sudden it's wrong to let a man see you.

It's just a large leap in my mind.

Sarah

Another way to think of it is how the same men who we're expected to protect from their animal urges manage to remain in control of their raging hormones around the majority of uncovered hairy women. But, all of a sudden, when they're around Muslim women, they can't handle hair.

Still, it does little good to argue about it since it's a choice and this is the choice some make for whatever reason. If it really makes amal and her husband happy that she wears hijab, no harm done.

Your example made me laugh a little.

Anyways I really am not trying to argue with her or you about it since I am in no place to argue. I guess I am just fascinated by the ideas and actions of newer converts and wonder where exactly they come from.

[sarah and hicham 3]

szsz I know you don't want to touch hijab with a ten foot pole but I just wanted to ask you your opinion on why western women wear hijab if there is nothing about it in the Quran. I am not asking if it's right or wrong to wear it, just asking where they get this thought or information that it's good to cover their hair.

Thanks as usual,

Sarah

Well, it's what I was saying before; the pressure to cover is enormous. Hijab is sold and sold like a miracle cure for all of societies ills. If all women covered, men would show more respect. If all women covered, there would be less lusting and rape. If women covered, there would be world peace. The reasoning about it is endless.

I'll post some links to info about hijab in a minute so you can see what I mean.

k thanks.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

For most muslims, their practice of Islam isn't based soley on the Qur'an. One looks to ahadith, traditions of the Prophet (saws), to expound upon the verses in the Qur'an that relate to modesty, just as we do for other areas.

I chose to wear hijab because I believe it's something Allah (swt) asks of me, through the Qur'an and ahadith. It's a form of submission and of worship. There certainly may be sociological reasons for it, but for me, it's enough that God requires it as part of haya (modesty, self respect, bashfulness). For the hijabi converts I know, they wear it because they believe it's a requirement, just as it is a requirement to make salat, prayers, 5 times a day.

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Faith consists of more than sixty branches. And Haya is a part of faith." (Bukhari)

[Bosco 1]

I agree with many of the things szsz has said. The covered wife is the 'good wife' and reflects on the husband, her family, his family, etc. There is pressure. When I drive my husband to mosque, I feel like I have to stop a block away lest they see his rebellious uncovered wife.

Also, I personally respect when a woman chooses to wear hijab with the reasoning being she does want to be identified as a Muslim, especially in the West - with part of the purpose being representing Muslims in a positive light, breaking stereotypes of the "oppressed" Muslim woman. I think if there were prominent American women wearing hijab, it could complete overhaul the view of the hijab as something oppressive.

I don't think it is commanded. The male who cannot control himself if he sees hair argument also doesn't resonate me - but I do get it as a way of positively identifying oneself as a Muslim and challenging narrow views.

Edited December 9, 2006 by Bosco

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Your example made me laugh a little.

Anyways I really am not trying to argue with her or you about it since I am in no place to argue. I guess I am just fascinated by the ideas and actions of newer converts and wonder where exactly they come from.

I'm fascinated by that too!

Top 11 excuses of Muslim Women who don't wear Islamic Hijaab! (and the reasons for hijab)

10 TIPS FOR MUSLIM ACTIVISTS TO DEAL WITH HIJAB

The Veil and Secularism

Why do some muslim women choose not to wear hijab?

Top Ten Excuses Of Muslim Women Who Don't Wear Hijaab And Their Obvious Weaknesses

IN DEFENSE OF NON-HIJABI SISTERS

The Manners: The Veil (Hijab)

Resources for and about Muslim Women

HIJAB (VEIL)

Hijab (Veil)*

I am a Muslim woman

I'm getting tired, but this list is nothing but a glimmer of the iceberg. Hijab is THE hot topic in the ummah.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

For most muslims, their practice of Islam isn't based soley on the Qur'an. One looks to ahadith, traditions of the Prophet (saws), to expound upon the verses in the Qur'an that relate to modesty, just as we do for other areas.

I chose to wear hijab because I believe it's something Allah (swt) asks of me, through the Qur'an and ahadith. It's a form of submission and of worship. There certainly may be sociological reasons for it, but for me, it's enough that God requires it as part of haya (modesty, self respect, bashfulness). For the hijabi converts I know, they wear it because they believe it's a requirement, just as it is a requirement to make salat, prayers, 5 times a day.

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Faith consists of more than sixty branches. And Haya is a part of faith." (Bukhari)

Respectfully, I ask if it matters to hijabis that when they claim that Allah commands hijab, that that opens the door to equally valid claims that Allah did not tell us to wear it? Afterall, it is a mortal interpretation that directs them, not a divine law. That's why, not finding the command in the Quran, one has to gather up so much from several sources to scrape together a reasoning behind a claim that their motivation is that Allah requires it.

One of the links wasn't done well. Here's a replacement:

The Veil and Secularism

Edited December 9, 2006 by szsz

[sarah and hicham 3]

Szsz thank you for the links, now I have some reading to do!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

You're welcome, but I'm not done.

Convert's Hijab: The Question of Gradualism

Hijab in the Light of the Qur'an and Hadith

Islamic Dress Code Protects Women’s Dignity

50+ Questions on Hijab/Niqab(Folder)

Hijab, Why?

Denying the Obligation of Wearing Hijab

The Hijab between Human Thought and Sacred Law

I Want To Take Off My Hijab…

My Future sister-in-law has removed her Hijab

[browneyez40 0]

I am not being hard on her and I am not the only one who expressed this opinion.

She is sharing her thoughts on the matter and that's what it sounds like to me. I just wonder how all these years someone doesn't cover then all of a sudden it's wrong to let a man see you.

It's just a large leap in my mind.

Sarah

Another way to think of it is how the same men who we're expected to protect from their animal urges manage to remain in control of their raging hormones around the majority of uncovered hairy women. But, all of a sudden, when they're around Muslim women, they can't handle hair.

Still, it does little good to argue about it since it's a choice and this is the choice some make for whatever reason. If it really makes amal and her husband happy that she wears hijab, no harm done.

Your example made me laugh a little.

Anyways I really am not trying to argue with her or you about it since I am in no place to argue. I guess I am just fascinated by the ideas and actions of newer converts and wonder where exactly they come from.

I am just as interested as Sarah in this topic. It confuses me too. I wonder about the muslim men who marry western non-muslim women, and what expectations they have for their dress...

I guess I'll have to talk to my husband when he gets home.

Has anyone had conversations with their spouse about how they should dress as a wife of a muslim man (even though they themselves are not muslim)?

I hope my question makes sense...

-C