Montana teacher gets 30 days in jail in rape of 14-year-old student who later kills herself

[Penny Lane 8,159]

I don't disagree. Just talking hypotheticals. Like I said, it's bad. I just don't see it as being as bad as a violent/brutal rape.

Um. Rape is rape, whether it's violent or not.

[duraaraa 203]

I don't disagree. Just talking hypotheticals. Like I said, it's bad. I just don't see it as being as bad as a violent/brutal rape.

I should also mention that I think it's very highly likely that it's the teacher's fault, and that the popular opinion about this is right.

With that said, I am more curious in the reason she decided to commit suicide. Is it because of what the teacher did to her, or because of what the community and the social opinion of minors having sex did to her?

It wasn't that long ago that older men were taking 12 or 13 year old brides, after all. I think the extent of the psychological damage of ambiguously consensual sex or even sexual abuse between adults and teenagers is not one of human nature, but one of cultural nature.

Um. Rape is rape, whether it's violent or not.

I completely disagree. If someone were to trick one of my kids into having sex with them, I would want them locked up. If they were to use violence to force my kids to have sex with them, I would want to kill them. On the other hand, if my 15 or 17 year old had a consensual relationship, said they loved this person and wanted the relationship, etc., I would try to support my kids' wishes. In Mongolia, either one of them would be legally free to choose a consensual sexual partner, but in the U.S., they can't.

Edited August 28, 2013 by duraaraa

[Penny Lane 8,159]

I completely disagree. If someone were to trick one of my kids into having sex with them, I would want them locked up. If they were to use violence to force my kids to have sex with them, I would want to kill them. On the other hand, if my 15 or 17 year old said they loved this person and wanted the relationship, etc., I would try to support my kids' wishes.

You can disagree all you'd like. Rape doesn't have to be violent to be rape. The results can be just as damaging.

[duraaraa 203]

You can disagree all you'd like. Rape doesn't have to be violent to be rape. The results can be just as damaging.

But here's the issue. In the U.S., the law defines any relationship a 14 year old has with an adult to be rape. In Italy, on the other hand, a consensual relationship between a 14 year old and an adult can exist. Are the results more damaging depending on location, or am I missing something?

[GandD 5,966]

You can disagree all you'd like. Rape doesn't have to be violent to be rape. The results can be just as damaging.

You can call it what you want. I'm saying, what happened to that girl in India is worse than this.

[Penny Lane 8,159]

You can call it what you want. I'm saying, what happened to that girl in India is worse than this.

And I'm saying it's not a competition. Sure, it could have been worse and could have been violent. But just because it wasn't doesn't demean what did happen. And what did happen was rape.

But here's the issue. In the U.S., the law defines any relationship a 14 year old has with an adult to be rape. In Italy, on the other hand, a consensual relationship between a 14 year old and an adult can exist. Are the results more damaging depending on location, or am I missing something?

You're talking about consensual relationships. I do not believe this was a consensual relationship so it makes no sense to compare it to one in Italy.

[GandD 5,966]

And I'm saying it's not a competition. Sure, it could have been worse and could have been violent. But just because it wasn't doesn't demean what did happen. And what did happen was rape.

Like I said, I'm not saying it wasn't rape. But would it make sense that this guy be given the same sentence as a guy that brutalized an unsuspecting random adult victim and then raped them? Assuming that the 14 year old was complicit (I understand there are complications to that word) would a lesser sentence not make sense for the predator teacher? I'm certainly not suggesting 30 days but say 15 years?

[decocker 7,198]

But teachers who get involved with 18 year old students or college students aren't? It's not like 18 year olds magically gain the critical thinking and decision making ability of an adult.

As the wide variety of ages of consent around the world (of even the country) show you, you can't draw the line at a certain age, at all. It needs to be determined completely on a case-by-case basis, whether consent was able to be given.

18 and up is a completely different ball game. yes, the line has to be drawn in order to protect those who can't protect themselves.

it isn't about having a magical gain in faculties once you turn a certain age. i'm uninterested in allowing a patriarchial society to determin on a case by case basis whether or not a girl "looked" older or "acted" consensual. i mean, think about that for a minute. i have an eleven year old neice that looks 16 - and if she wants - she can act much more mature than she actually is. she also has a long absent father; she's practically begging for some guy to come along and scoop her up. she needs to be protected from herself right now..

[decocker 7,198]

Like I said, I'm not saying it wasn't rape. But would it make sense that this guy be given the same sentence as a guy that brutalized an unsuspecting random adult victim and then raped them? Assuming that the 14 year old was complicit (I understand there are complications to that word) would a lesser sentence not make sense for the predator teacher? I'm certainly not suggesting 30 days but say 15 years?

i say 15 years. teachers have no business - none - in having sexual relationships with their students.

[Penny Lane 8,159]

Like I said, I'm not saying it wasn't rape. But would it make sense that this guy be given the same sentence as a guy that brutalized an unsuspecting random adult victim and then raped them? Assuming that the 14 year old was complicit (I understand there are complications to that word) would a lesser sentence not make sense for the predator teacher? I'm certainly not suggesting 30 days but say 15 years?

Well no, the guy who brutalized or kidnapped someone and raped them would get extra charges on top of the rape.

But at the end of the day, the teacher and the guy who brutalized a woman are still rapists. One didn't do it violently, but that doesn't make him any 'better' than the other guy.

[decocker 7,198]

I completely disagree. If someone were to trick one of my kids into having sex with them, I would want them locked up. If they were to use violence to force my kids to have sex with them, I would want to kill them.

jesus christ. trickery isn't so bad but force is? good luck dude.

if my kid came to me as a teenager and said they wanted to have a relationship with their highschool teacher, i'd say fine. but you have to wait until you graduate and/or out of the teacher/student environment. see how quickly the teacher looses interest in that booty call.

[GandD 5,966]

i say 15 years. teachers have no business - none - in having sexual relationships with their students.

And to be clear, I don't disagree with that.

[GandD 5,966]

Well no, the guy who brutalized or kidnapped someone and raped them would get extra charges on top of the rape.

But at the end of the day, the teacher and the guy who brutalized a woman are still rapists. One didn't do it violently, but that doesn't make him any 'better' than the other guy.

There are "levels" to most crimes. I don't think that rape should be an exception. In fact I don't think its fair to some of the worst victims (we're talking general terminology here) for us to treat them exactly as the victims of lesser offenses. I'll use the old example of the girl that gets drunk with a guy, comes on to him, and then calls it rape the next day since she wasn't aware of her faculties or something. Granted this is an extreme example and weighted but its to illustrate a point.

[Penny Lane 8,159]

There are "levels" to most crimes. I don't think that rape should be an exception. In fact I don't think its fair to some of the worst victims (we're talking general terminology here) for us to treat them exactly as the victims of lesser offenses. I'll use the old example of the girl that gets drunk with a guy, comes on to him, and then calls it rape the next day since she wasn't aware of her faculties or something. Granted this is an extreme example and weighted but its to illustrate a point.

Rape is tricky to categorize in that way.

Say some guy that I knew raped me at a party. I was scared and drunk but didn't fight back. I let it happen so that I could get out alive.

Say some guy that I didn't know raped me. Pulled me into his car and took me somewhere. I decided to fight back and in return, he got violent until I stopped fighting.

Say I'm younger, in my teens, and someone much older than me pretends to be my friend. I like the attention, but don't know what I'm getting myself into. He makes me feel important, buys me things, and makes me have sex with him. I don't want to, but I let him because I consider him a friend and can't comprehend why he would take advantage of that. He tells me I have to, or he'll tell my parents. Or friends.

Is one guy worse than the other? They're still all rapists. One just happened to be violent as well. Does one deserve a harsher punishment?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Penny Lane

[GandD 5,966]

Rape is tricky to categorize in that way.

Say some guy that I knew raped me at a party. I was scared and drunk but didn't fight back. I let it happen so that I could get out alive.

Say some guy that I didn't know raped me. Pulled me into his car and took me somewhere. I decided to fight back and in return, he got violent until I stopped fighting.

Say I'm younger, in my teens, and someone much older than me pretends to be my friend. I like the attention, but don't know what I'm getting myself into. He makes me feel important, buys me things, and makes me have sex with him. I don't want to, but I let him because I consider him a friend and can't comprehend why he would take advantage of that. He tells me I have to, or he'll tell my parents. Or friends.

Is one guy worse than the other? They're still all rapists. One just happened to be violent as well. Does one deserve a harsher punishment?

Which is worse, a rapist or a pedophile?