New York's stop-and-frisk policy unconstitutional, judge rules

[Teddy B 17,252]

I think crime rates always go down when you start marching down the road towards becoming a police state. I would guess the crime rate in North Korea is pretty low.

When things spiral out of control, drastic measures are sometimes required to bring them back to normalcy. Would you prefer higher crime and murder rates?

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Crime rates have dropped substantially since the stop and frisk program was implemented.

A counter to that argument: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/07/17/does-stop-and-frisk-reduce-crime/dont-antagonize-those-who-could-help-fight-crime

The N.Y.P.D.’s stop and frisk policy has one law enforcement benefit. It almost certainly deters many young African-American and Latino men from carrying guns on the street. This explains why the “hit” rate for stop and frisks that result in recovering guns is lower in Brownsville, Brooklyn, (0.05 percent) than in other parts of New York (0.15 percent), according to N.Y.P.D. data. In heavily policed neighborhoods like Brownsville, where the average young man is seized and searched five times a year, according to that data, you would be crazy to walk around with a firearm.

So you just give the gun to your girlfriend to carry, or you keep it at home. Gun violence in Brownsville remains among the highest in the city, and the N.Y.P.D.’s heavy-handed tactics actually may be counterproductive. Stop and frisk causes many citizens – not just the ones with guns – to hate the police. According to a survey by the Pew Research Center, 58 percent of whites but only 23 percent of blacks believe that police enforce the law without excess force and while treating all races equally.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/07/17/does-stop-and-frisk-reduce-crime/focused-on-crime-numbers-but-not-ones-that-count

The misguided emphasis on numbers explains the exponential increase in stop and frisks during Mayor Michael Bloomberg's tenure, a leap of 600 percent, from 97,296 in 2003 to 685,724 last year. Echoing the dubious claims of his police commissioner, Raymond Kelly, Bloomberg defends tactics like stop and frisk by citing crime reduction in the city. But the relevant data hardly serve his argument. The drop in murders in New York City, for example, from 2002 until now has been about 12 percent, from 587 annually to 536. During the same period, the number of murders declined by 43 percent in Washington and by 50 percent in Los Angeles, two cities that have less aggressive stop and frisk tactics.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Su and Marvin

[Teddy B 17,252]

A counter to that argument: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/07/17/does-stop-and-frisk-reduce-crime/dont-antagonize-those-who-could-help-fight-crime

The N.Y.P.D.’s stop and frisk policy has one law enforcement benefit. It almost certainly deters many young African-American and Latino men from carrying guns on the street. This explains why the “hit” rate for stop and frisks that result in recovering guns is lower in Brownsville, Brooklyn, (0.05 percent) than in other parts of New York (0.15 percent), according to N.Y.P.D. data. In heavily policed neighborhoods like Brownsville, where the average young man is seized and searched five times a year, according to that data, you would be crazy to walk around with a firearm.

So you just give the gun to your girlfriend to carry, or you keep it at home. Gun violence in Brownsville remains among the highest in the city, and the N.Y.P.D.’s heavy-handed tactics actually may be counterproductive. Stop and frisk causes many citizens – not just the ones with guns – to hate the police. According to a survey by the Pew Research Center, 58 percent of whites but only 23 percent of blacks believe that police enforce the law without excess force and while treating all races equally.

So you do agree that crime rates have dropped since stop & frisk has been implemented? You just don't like the fact that Blacks and Hispanics are targeted more than whites?

Edited August 13, 2013 by Teddy B

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

So you do agree that crime rates have dropped since stop & frisk has been implemented? You just don't like the fact that Blacks and Hispanics are targeted more than whites?

Did you read my edit? I posted the second part of the article:

In fact, police reformers and concerned academics make a strong case that quota-driven policing -- not only stop and frisk, but nuisance arrests and summonses on charges ranging from selling flowers on the street to holding open alcohol containers to sleeping on a park bench -- is a counterproductive strategy, reducing people's willingness to respect and comply with the police. The way the N.Y.P.D. practices stop and frisk and the way the city's justice system processes minor cases bear few if any of the hallmarks essential to people's positive perception of procedural fairness.

Aggressive quota-driven policing, stop and frisk being the most troubling example, while aimed at enhancing community safety and well being, actually undermines respect for social norms that is the bedrock for creating stable and crime-free communities. A neighborhood-based approach with officers focused on collaborating with local leaders on problem solving represents a more effective way for us to achieve a more safe and inclusive city for all New Yorkers.

I think any type of racial profiling is dangerous.

[Teddy B 17,252]

Did you read my edit? I posted the second part of the article:

In fact, police reformers and concerned academics make a strong case that quota-driven policing -- not only stop and frisk, but nuisance arrests and summonses on charges ranging from selling flowers on the street to holding open alcohol containers to sleeping on a park bench -- is a counterproductive strategy, reducing people's willingness to respect and comply with the police. The way the N.Y.P.D. practices stop and frisk and the way the city's justice system processes minor cases bear few if any of the hallmarks essential to people's positive perception of procedural fairness.

Aggressive quota-driven policing, stop and frisk being the most troubling example, while aimed at enhancing community safety and well being, actually undermines respect for social norms that is the bedrock for creating stable and crime-free communities. A neighborhood-based approach with officers focused on collaborating with local leaders on problem solving represents a more effective way for us to achieve a more safe and inclusive city for all New Yorkers.

I think any type of racial profiling is dangerous.

I read the entire article you posted and linked to, I found nothing that said crime rates have not dropped since stop & frisk was implemented. Did I miss something?

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

I read the entire article you posted and linked to, I found nothing that said crime rates have not dropped since stop & frisk was implemented. Did I miss something?

The articles I posted suggested the crime rate dropped due to other programs implemented, not just SAF. Folks are crediting that alone for the numbers drop, which allows it to continue.

[Teddy B 17,252]

The articles I posted suggested the crime rate dropped due to other programs implemented, not just SAF. Folks are crediting that alone for the numbers drop, which allows it to continue.

Have crime rates dropped since stop and frisk was implemented, or not?

[Karee 4,190]

When things spiral out of control, drastic measures are sometimes required to bring them back to normalcy. Would you prefer higher crime and murder rates?

That's always the excuse when governments want to curtail peoples civil liberties. Create some boogeyman and tell the people you're doing these things to protect them, and as long as you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about. Sad thing is people still fall for it.

[Teddy B 17,252]

That's always the excuse when governments want to curtail peoples civil liberties. Create some boogeyman and tell the people you're doing these things to protect them, and as long as you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about. Sad thing is people still fall for it.

What boogeyman? Did New York have a crime problem or not? You're sounding like one of the gun nuts here.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

When things spiral out of control, drastic measures are sometimes required to bring them back to normalcy. Would you prefer higher crime and murder rates?

RG cut crime by dramatic numbers by just enforcing the laws already on the books,

I know that simple idea would not be understood by most liberals

They would rather limit the size of my Soda and search me without cause, while claiming to be progressives.

Edited August 13, 2013 by The conciliator

[Teddy B 17,252]

RG cut crime by dramatic numbers by just enforcing the laws already on the books,

I know that simple idea would not be understood by most liberals

They would rather limit the size of my Soda and search me without cause, while claiming to be progressives.

What's RG?

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Have crime rates dropped since stop and frisk was implemented, or not?

Crime has been reduced, but not from SAF or from it alone.

[Karee 4,190]

What boogeyman? Did New York have a crime problem or not? You're sounding like one of the gun nuts here.

Sure New York had and probably still has a crime problem. The crime rate has been dropping since 1990 in NYC and for that matter nationwide. From what I can find, this stop and frisk policy was implemented in earnest in 2004. To claim that stop and frisk had something to do with a drop in the crime rate doesn't add up. What about from 1990-2004?

I'd argue that if you did away with search warrants the crime rate would go down. Why stop there? Let's put the burden of proof on the defendant in trials. I bet that would reduce the crime rate as well. Who cares about the innocent people that go to jail.

If wanting to prevent the police from performing unreasonable searches makes me a gun nut, then I guess I'm a gun nut, even though I don't own a gun and have no desire to own one.

[Danno 1,228]

Well I guess we will see if the gun-crime rate climbs... if we have another example of "freedom failing".

One thing NY has in it's favor is demographics, Blacks are only like 25% where as Detroit is now getting close to 90%.

Unfortunately as blacks account for much more crime than their comparable population that's why such numbers matter.

IIRC, Blacks are responsible for 50% of the homicides in NYC, twice their population.

In 2013 one would not think these number would persist yet they do and calling them HATE-FACTS do not help one bit.

There is something seriously wrong.... sick in Black culture where it glorifies death and violence as a main staple, where it is a bigger taboo to "snitch" than it is to

Be on welfare.

I keep waiting for the Army of decent Blacks to rise up and say enough is enough but what we typically see is they do what everyone else does (if possible)...... they just relocate into some White-topia were doors aren't locked during the afternoon and bikes are left on the lawn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_flight

[Karee 4,190]

What's RG?

Took me a minute, but I think he means Rudy Giuliani. I'm thinking he didn't want to even try spelling Giuliani.