Americans Giving Up Passports Jump Sixfold as Tougher Rules Loom

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

You are still reading the thread 30 minutes after your last post? Is it that hard to answer? It would seem pretty simple.

edit, 8:13 am Now he is gone Karee. You pwned him good.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Gary and Alla

[Karee 4,191]

You are still reading the thread 30 minutes after your last post? Is it that hard to answer? It would seem pretty simple.

edit, 8:13 am Now he is gone Karee. You pwned him good.

It was a serious question actually. I'd give up my citizenship without blinking an eye if I could get a decent passport that I could use for travel. Sierra Leone for example wont cut it.

[Jacque67 7,328]

It was a serious question actually. I'd give up my citizenship without blinking an eye if I could get a decent passport that I could use for travel. Sierra Leone for example wont cut it.

You are an intelligent guy.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

It was a serious question actually. I'd give up my citizenship without blinking an eye if I could get a decent passport that I could use for travel. Sierra Leone for example wont cut it.

Serious discussions cannot be held with people who can only throw insults or BS. They can only be held with knowledgeable people on that topic.

I understand your question is sincere, and you along with many other people would/have done the same. If a person's story was BS designed to insult someone on the issue of guns...only they mess up their choice of countries badly on that issue, pressed on the other issue, they will usually babble unintelligibly about "the mafia" or something equally as irrelevent and run.

Realizing you cannot just surrender one citizenship without having another, unless you want to be trapped forever in Monaco...about like being trapped in a country the size of Louisville, KY. Switzerland is at least a little bigger. But they are chock full of guns! And 3000 rifle ranges which means if you do no thave one in your backyard...your neighbor does. Better get earplugs

If such says which country they became citizens of, they know it can be googled in about 30 seconds and they can be called on that BS.

Best bet is to leave and go back to stuff like "your mother wears army boots"

You are an intelligent guy.

How can you tell?

[Karee 4,191]

Personally, I don't give a $hit about guns one way or the other. The issue hasn't affected me at all up to this point in my life. However, I have a problem paying taxes to a country if I don't set foot in that country for the entire tax year. Now if they wanted to charge me some sort of nominal "passport tax" I would be fine with that. The whole argument for taxation is that the govt. provides needed services for it's citizens. Now if I'm not living in the U.S. what services am I receiving? The only thing I can think of is USC services at the embassy in the foreign country where you reside. As I pointed out in a another thread before super-troll came in there, I was in need of USC services once in Thailand because I was being threatened with jail for not signing a confession. The embassy never even answered the phone or responded to me in any way. So again, I don't see any benefit of holding a U.S. passport other than it's use for travel. It's pretty handy in that regard because alot of countries don't require a visa if you have a U.S. passport. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any benefits to holding U.S. citizenship. I do see some big liabilities on the tax side though.

[Jacque67 7,328]

Jeez

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Personally, I don't give a $hit about guns one way or the other. The issue hasn't affected me at all up to this point in my life. However, I have a problem paying taxes to a country if I don't set foot in that country for the entire tax year. Now if they wanted to charge me some sort of nominal "passport tax" I would be fine with that. The whole argument for taxation is that the govt. provides needed services for it's citizens. Now if I'm not living in the U.S. what services am I receiving? The only thing I can think of is USC services at the embassy in the foreign country where you reside. As I pointed out in a another thread before super-troll came in there, I was in need of USC services once in Thailand because I was being threatened with jail for not signing a confession. The embassy never even answered the phone or responded to me in any way. So again, I don't see any benefit of holding a U.S. passport other than it's use for travel. It's pretty handy in that regard because alot of countries don't require a visa if you have a U.S. passport. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any benefits to holding U.S. citizenship. I do see some big liabilities on the tax side though.

Seeing as how I am the only other poster that even addressed the issue, we can talk about it.

There are all kinds of ways to skin this cat. For one, you are allowed to make a LOT of money overseas and pay no tax. You have to file a return but you do no thave to pay tax. The exempt amount increases every year and was recently up to about $93,000 in wages, salary, etc. Overseas bonuses are NOT taxed and bonuses up to 50% are not uncommon. I had a 40% bonus when I worked in Ukraine. Then you have the cost of living reimbursment, which for me was $800 per month....tax free if you can show receipts for living expenses...of course I can. Add to that you can earn any amount of money in many countries and claim an exemption to US tax by paying the taxes in that other country. If their taxation rates is lower...you are better off.

This whole fiasco and tons of other problems could be eliminated by getting rid of INCOME tax and replacing it with the FAIR TAX. One act and everything is done. No more tax returns.

Most people doing this are wealthy and made a LOT of money overseas and never bring that money to the USA. This used to avoid the tax for them and they spent that money outside the USA, it never came "onshore" to be taxed. As the US seeks to shrink these "tax havens" the nly way these ultra wealthy people making lots of unearned income can avoid the tax is to denounce citizenship.

Some countries have loosey-goosey rules about citizenship...Russia is one...and Depardieu was given citizenship because Outi says so and he has the authority to say so. Most countries will try to find a way to give citizenship to a "whale" and get THEIR money in THEIR country. Heck even the US does this with the EB-5 green card program.

If we just threw out this income tax, the US would become the world's "tax haven" and all their money would come here!

It is not a good opiton for most Americans and one cannot just "choose" Switzerland because they "have less guns and better food" Most other countries have immigration laws also. Even if you like their food, you cannot just move in, get a passport and start traveling around. A rich guy may not need to work but he needs to travel. "Sorry, Jacque, um, Yeah I have 364 million $$$, but I cannot come visit you. I will send you money for a ticket to come to Switzerland though"

[Jacque67 7,328]

I get your avatar now. Don't do it.

[Karee 4,191]

Seeing as how I am the only other poster that even addressed the issue, we can talk about it.

There are all kinds of ways to skin this cat. For one, you are allowed to make a LOT of money overseas and pay no tax. You have to file a return but you do no thave to pay tax. The exempt amount increases every year and was recently up to about $93,000 in wages, salary, etc. Overseas bonuses are NOT taxed and bonuses up to 50% are not uncommon. I had a 40% bonus when I worked in Ukraine. Then you have the cost of living reimbursment, which for me was $800 per month....tax free if you can show receipts for living expenses...of course I can. Add to that you can earn any amount of money in many countries and claim an exemption to US tax by paying the taxes in that other country. If their taxation rates is lower...you are better off.

This whole fiasco and tons of other problems could be eliminated by getting rid of INCOME tax and replacing it with the FAIR TAX. One act and everything is done. No more tax returns.

Most people doing this are wealthy and made a LOT of money overseas and never bring that money to the USA. This used to avoid the tax for them and they spent that money outside the USA, it never came "onshore" to be taxed. As the US seeks to shrink these "tax havens" the nly way these ultra wealthy people making lots of unearned income can avoid the tax is to denounce citizenship.

Some countries have loosey-goosey rules about citizenship...Russia is one...and Depardieu was given citizenship because Outi says so and he has the authority to say so. Most countries will try to find a way to give citizenship to a "whale" and get THEIR money in THEIR country. Heck even the US does this with the EB-5 green card program.

If we just threw out this income tax, the US would become the world's "tax haven" and all their money would come here!

It is not a good opiton for most Americans and one cannot just "choose" Switzerland because they "have less guns and better food" Most other countries have immigration laws also. Even if you like their food, you cannot just move in, get a passport and start traveling around. A rich guy may not need to work but he needs to travel. "Sorry, Jacque, um, Yeah I have 364 million $$$, but I cannot come visit you. I will send you money for a ticket to come to Switzerland though"

Interesting. I found this link:

http://taxes.about.com/od/taxhelp/a/ForeignIncome.htm

That explains alot. For tax year 2006, I lived and worked in Thailand for a U.S. company. They hit me with a 1099 for 36k. That came out to me owing about 10k in taxes. That ended up being 12k after interest and penalties. When I went through the process in 2008/2009 to bring my wife here they gave her 221g at the interview due to the tax lien on that 12k, and because my income for 2007 was just barely over the poverty guidelines they subtracted the tax lien from my income and said I only made like 8k for 2007. I simply showed them an I-864 with my 2008 income which was way over the poverty guidelines, and that was that. Visa issued. Now I had been paying the IRS monthly prior to my wife's interview and had gotten the bill down to about 6k once my wife arrived.

Once my wife got here and got a social security number, I took all this to an accountant. I remember her mentioning that foreign income exclusion. So she filed that and also amended my filing status to married filing jointly from single for the previous years since we got married in 2006. This resulted in them wiping clean my tax lien AND them sending me a check for 5500 USD.

So thinking about it, I guess it's not that big of deal when I leave here permanently in a few years, as long as I don't go over that income exclusion. Plus as you mentioned I can claim living expenses etc.

So I guess I wont be burning my passport in front of the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok any time soon. I'll still want to keep it for travel.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Interesting. I found this link:

http://taxes.about.com/od/taxhelp/a/ForeignIncome.htm

That explains alot. For tax year 2006, I lived and worked in Thailand for a U.S. company. They hit me with a 1099 for 36k. That came out to me owing about 10k in taxes. That ended up being 12k after interest and penalties. When I went through the process in 2008/2009 to bring my wife here they gave her 221g at the interview due to the tax lien on that 12k, and because my income for 2007 was just barely over the poverty guidelines they subtracted the tax lien from my income and said I only made like 8k for 2007. I simply showed them an I-864 with my 2008 income which was way over the poverty guidelines, and that was that. Visa issued. Now I had been paying the IRS monthly prior to my wife's interview and had gotten the bill down to about 6k once my wife arrived.

Once my wife got here and got a social security number, I took all this to an accountant. I remember her mentioning that foreign income exclusion. So she filed that and also amended my filing status to married filing jointly from single for the previous years since we got married in 2006. This resulted in them wiping clean my tax lien AND them sending me a check for 5500 USD.

So thinking about it, I guess it's not that big of deal when I leave here permanently in a few years, as long as I don't go over that income exclusion. Plus as you mentioned I can claim living expenses etc.

So I guess I wont be burning my passport in front of the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok any time soon. I'll still want to keep it for travel.

I remember your situation well and it is one of those "landmark" cases we refer to at VJ to beware of. You and TBoneTx were my heros! You got your wives here no matter the odds. I remember you quickly packing your stuff and heading out to Bangkok to bring the documents. I was a n00b at that time looking out for stuff to avoid...tax leins, check.

I made a lot of money in Ukraine and paid no tax on it, which, if you consider it US income would be like another $20,000 in my pocket. I really did use the living expense reimbursement for living expenses. But hey, if you give me the money to live on tax free, that's more tax free exemption money I can keep for ME. My employer was keen to this (they usually are) and my salary was a few dollars less than the exemption. They made up the rest in "overseas Bonus", the bonus does not even have to be the same for everyone...it can be adjusted for hardships. Ukraine was considered a "extraordinary hardship" posting at the time because of hyper- inflation. (pre and during Orange Revolution) When you are getting paid in US $$$ and that is the currency everyone wants...the hardship is mitigated somewhat. My main hardship was what to do with all the women? I figured that out in exactly 7 hours.

Lots of overseas contractors make tons this way. An acquaitance, a former MP, retired, is training police officers in Iraq for BIG $$$ and getting the bonus and living expense. He signs on for one year and makes 3 years salary (considering it is tax free)

One of my former good acquaitances from VJ is now living and teaching in VietNam. You could probably get a gig teaching English in Thailand. Alla's friend and former classmate, a Russian gilr who also went to St. Micheals here, is teaching English in a private school in Istanbul. She is not a US citizen though. She makes something north of $60,000 per year +++ and even has a healthclub membership in Turkey. She teaches 4 hours per day, 4 days per week. Her total package (salary, bonus, COLA) is valued over $100,000. Compare that to a US 10th grade English teacher with 2 years experience. A Russian English teacher in public school in Russia would make about $190 per MONTH.

Now, if you are a Mega rich guy that hangs out with people making one-line personal insults on VJ all day, and that person seems to hate guns...then you way want to consider escaping to somewhere with lots of guns, IF they will give you a citizenship

If you have to work for a living, no need to surrender anything.

Alla and I seriously considered living at least half the year in Ukraine (foreign earned income is exempt even if you live only half the year there, but only half as much is exempt...makes sense) She seems less inclined to that now having been spoiled by "almost free" clothes, a self propelled closet (AKA Toyota Yaris) and the automatic garage door opener. Our consideration was purely for fun and games. With all the college tuition we pay fpr at leat 6 more years, we never have to worry about tax anyway!

[Karee 4,191]

I remember your situation well and it is one of those "landmark" cases we refer to at VJ to beware of. You and TBoneTx were my heros! You got your wives here no matter the odds. I remember you quickly packing your stuff and heading out to Bangkok to bring the documents. I was a n00b at that time looking out for stuff to avoid...tax leins, check.

I made a lot of money in Ukraine and paid no tax on it, which, if you consider it US income would be like another $20,000 in my pocket. I really did use the living expense reimbursement for living expenses. But hey, if you give me the money to live on tax free, that's more tax free exemption money I can keep for ME. My employer was keen to this (they usually are) and my salary was a few dollars less than the exemption. They made up the rest in "overseas Bonus", the bonus does not even have to be the same for everyone...it can be adjusted for hardships. Ukraine was considered a "extraordinary hardship" posting at the time because of hyper- inflation. (pre and during Orange Revolution) When you are getting paid in US $$$ and that is the currency everyone wants...the hardship is mitigated somewhat. My main hardship was what to do with all the women? I figured that out in exactly 7 hours.

Lots of overseas contractors make tons this way. An acquaitance, a former MP, retired, is training police officers in Iraq for BIG $$$ and getting the bonus and living expense. He signs on for one year and makes 3 years salary (considering it is tax free)

One of my former good acquaitances from VJ is now living and teaching in VietNam. You could probably get a gig teaching English in Thailand. Alla's friend and former classmate, a Russian gilr who also went to St. Micheals here, is teaching English in a private school in Istanbul. She is not a US citizen though. She makes something north of $60,000 per year +++ and even has a healthclub membership in Turkey. She teaches 4 hours per day, 4 days per week. Her total package (salary, bonus, COLA) is valued over $100,000. Compare that to a US 10th grade English teacher with 2 years experience. A Russian English teacher in public school in Russia would make about $190 per MONTH.

Now, if you are a Mega rich guy that hangs out with people making one-line personal insults on VJ all day, and that person seems to hate guns...then you way want to consider escaping to somewhere with lots of guns, IF they will give you a citizenship

If you have to work for a living, no need to surrender anything.

Alla and I seriously considered living at least half the year in Ukraine (foreign earned income is exempt even if you live only half the year there, but only half as much is exempt...makes sense) She seems less inclined to that now having been spoiled by "almost free" clothes, a self propelled closet (AKA Toyota Yaris) and the automatic garage door opener. Our consideration was purely for fun and games. With all the college tuition we pay fpr at leat 6 more years, we never have to worry about tax anyway!

Yeah that was my old VJ name "Daboyz." Someone here pi$$ed me off to the point where I just had them close that account and didn't post for about 6 months.

I've looked into the teaching English thing, and it might be a good way to go. The pay is roughly $1000 USD a month in Thailand if you get the right gig. I still have alot of contacts in APAC countries in the telecom field, so I feel pretty confident I could go back and pick up near where I left off. There's still alot of work there in that field. Burma is finally opening up and all their infrastructure is circa 1950s technology. So I have options. I'm currently saving ~40% of my gross income with the plan on moving back to Thailand. I'm putting some planning into it this time. I don't want to end up at the SFO airport with $20 of Thai currency in my pocket and no prospects, which is where I was when I came back last time in 2007. I pi$$ed away 100k USD a year in Bangkok while not having any bills at all. I still can't figure out how I did that. I WONT be making that mistake again.

My wife has land on the Thai/Cambodian border and wants to grow watermelons or something like that. LIke I said, I'll make sure I'm financial secure enough this time so I can live out my days turning full beer bottles into empty ones if that's what I want to do.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Karee

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Yeah that was my old VJ name "Daboyz." Someone here pi$$ed me off to the point where I just had them close that account and didn't post for about 6 months.

I've looked into the teaching English thing, and it might be a good way to go. The pay is roughly $1000 USD a month in Thailand if you get the right gig. I still have alot of contacts in APAC countries in the telecom field, so I feel pretty confident I could go back and pick up near where I left off. There's still alot of work there in that field. Burma is finally opening up and all their infrastructure is circa 1950s technology. So I have options. I'm currently saving ~40% of my gross income with the plan on moving back to Thailand. I'm putting some planning into it this time. I don't want to end up at the SFO airport with $20 of Thai currency in my pocket and no prospects, which is where I was when I came back last time in 2007. I pi$$ed away 100k USD a year in Bangkok while not having any bills at all. I still can't figure out how I did that. I WONT be making that mistake again.

My wife has land on the Thai/Cambodian border and wants to grow watermelons or something like that. LIke I said, I'll make sure I'm financial secure enough this time so I can live out my days turning full beer bottles into empty ones if that's what I want to do.

Daboyz! Yes, I was trying to remember. I recognized the avatar though.

Ah yes, our impetuous youth. I rented my house to a friend when I went to Ukraine, made a ####### load of money, visited countries all over Europe sampling the "crumpet" and came back with just enough money to fix the damage to my house left by my "friend" He did pay the bills, I will give him that but the freaking grass was 5 ft. tall!!! No kidding. It was a rural area and they had no ordinances against that stuff. My neighbors were glad i was back when they saw me out there with the tractor. I sold that house...too bad, that would have been a better place for us...rural but not far out of town on a good road. and ended up buying a lakefront place way out in the islands. Great place for a single guy that loves fishing. Not so great for a family that needs to travel 40 miles each way to school.

I had no bills other than my rent in Ukraine which covered everything. But, lordy, I had fun. You cannot tell people that stuff because they won;t believe you. I refuse to discuss it with Alla and she tried many times to get me to crack. She seems to have given up. She is Ukrainian...she knows.

I think $1000 per month would be good in Thailand, right? It would be in Ukraine, not wealthy but comfortable. I will retire for good in a few years, I can take my SS live in Ukraine very well and teach English and have that be exempt from income tax. Alla does not want to live there all year anymore. We have time to re-think

[CarlosAndSveta 808]

Seeing as how I am the only other poster that even addressed the issue, we can talk about it.

There are all kinds of ways to skin this cat. For one, you are allowed to make a LOT of money overseas and pay no tax. You have to file a return but you do no thave to pay tax. The exempt amount increases every year and was recently up to about $93,000 in wages, salary, etc. Overseas bonuses are NOT taxed and bonuses up to 50% are not uncommon. I had a 40% bonus when I worked in Ukraine. Then you have the cost of living reimbursment, which for me was $800 per month....tax free if you can show receipts for living expenses...of course I can. Add to that you can earn any amount of money in many countries and claim an exemption to US tax by paying the taxes in that other country. If their taxation rates is lower...you are better off.

This whole fiasco and tons of other problems could be eliminated by getting rid of INCOME tax and replacing it with the FAIR TAX. One act and everything is done. No more tax returns.

Most people doing this are wealthy and made a LOT of money overseas and never bring that money to the USA. This used to avoid the tax for them and they spent that money outside the USA, it never came "onshore" to be taxed. As the US seeks to shrink these "tax havens" the nly way these ultra wealthy people making lots of unearned income can avoid the tax is to denounce citizenship.

Some countries have loosey-goosey rules about citizenship...Russia is one...and Depardieu was given citizenship because Outi says so and he has the authority to say so. Most countries will try to find a way to give citizenship to a "whale" and get THEIR money in THEIR country. Heck even the US does this with the EB-5 green card program.

If we just threw out this income tax, the US would become the world's "tax haven" and all their money would come here!

It is not a good opiton for most Americans and one cannot just "choose" Switzerland because they "have less guns and better food" Most other countries have immigration laws also. Even if you like their food, you cannot just move in, get a passport and start traveling around. A rich guy may not need to work but he needs to travel. "Sorry, Jacque, um, Yeah I have 364 million $$$, but I cannot come visit you. I will send you money for a ticket to come to Switzerland though"

I remember your situation well and it is one of those "landmark" cases we refer to at VJ to beware of. You and TBoneTx were my heros! You got your wives here no matter the odds. I remember you quickly packing your stuff and heading out to Bangkok to bring the documents. I was a n00b at that time looking out for stuff to avoid...tax leins, check.

I made a lot of money in Ukraine and paid no tax on it, which, if you consider it US income would be like another $20,000 in my pocket. I really did use the living expense reimbursement for living expenses. But hey, if you give me the money to live on tax free, that's more tax free exemption money I can keep for ME. My employer was keen to this (they usually are) and my salary was a few dollars less than the exemption. They made up the rest in "overseas Bonus", the bonus does not even have to be the same for everyone...it can be adjusted for hardships. Ukraine was considered a "extraordinary hardship" posting at the time because of hyper- inflation. (pre and during Orange Revolution) When you are getting paid in US $$$ and that is the currency everyone wants...the hardship is mitigated somewhat. My main hardship was what to do with all the women? I figured that out in exactly 7 hours.

Lots of overseas contractors make tons this way. An acquaitance, a former MP, retired, is training police officers in Iraq for BIG $$$ and getting the bonus and living expense. He signs on for one year and makes 3 years salary (considering it is tax free)

One of my former good acquaitances from VJ is now living and teaching in VietNam. You could probably get a gig teaching English in Thailand. Alla's friend and former classmate, a Russian gilr who also went to St. Micheals here, is teaching English in a private school in Istanbul. She is not a US citizen though. She makes something north of $60,000 per year +++ and even has a healthclub membership in Turkey. She teaches 4 hours per day, 4 days per week. Her total package (salary, bonus, COLA) is valued over $100,000. Compare that to a US 10th grade English teacher with 2 years experience. A Russian English teacher in public school in Russia would make about $190 per MONTH.

Now, if you are a Mega rich guy that hangs out with people making one-line personal insults on VJ all day, and that person seems to hate guns...then you way want to consider escaping to somewhere with lots of guns, IF they will give you a citizenship

If you have to work for a living, no need to surrender anything.

Alla and I seriously considered living at least half the year in Ukraine (foreign earned income is exempt even if you live only half the year there, but only half as much is exempt...makes sense) She seems less inclined to that now having been spoiled by "almost free" clothes, a self propelled closet (AKA Toyota Yaris) and the automatic garage door opener. Our consideration was purely for fun and games. With all the college tuition we pay fpr at leat 6 more years, we never have to worry about tax anyway!

Bonuses, whether earned here or overseas,are taxable. Under Internal Revenue Code Section 61(a)(1) bonuses are included in gross income because they are compensations for services. The code section doesn't specifically list bonuses but if you look at Internal Revenue Regulation Section 1.61-2(a)(1) you will see that bonuses are specifically cited as being included in gross income unless excluded by law. The most commonly available exclusion to exclude a bonus earned overseas would be the foreign income exclusion, which you mentioned.

You stated that your employer made your salary equal the foreign income exclusion and then paid you the rest of your compensation as a bonus. Please enlighten me under what provision of the Internal Revenue Code you are allowed to exclude this bonus.

[CarlosAndSveta 808]

Bonuses, whether earned here or overseas,are taxable. Under Internal Revenue Code Section 61(a)(1) bonuses are included in gross income because they are compensations for services. The code section doesn't specifically list bonuses but if you look at Internal Revenue Regulation Section 1.61-2(a)(1) you will see that bonuses are specifically cited as being included in gross income unless excluded by law. The most commonly available exclusion to exclude a bonus earned overseas would be the foreign income exclusion, which you mentioned.

You stated that your employer made your salary equal the foreign income exclusion and then paid you the rest of your compensation as a bonus. Please enlighten me under what provision of the Internal Revenue Code you are allowed to exclude this bonus.

Damn Gary, I thought you would be all over this. I am still waiting to here your explanation about how foreign bonuses are not taxable.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Damn Gary, I thought you would be all over this. I am still waiting to here your explanation about how foreign bonuses are not taxable.

Damn Carlos if you want to point out that a construction manager can be mistaken about taxes from 8 years ago...you win. OK? I am not offering to be Karee's tax accountant. I was offering the possibility that a US citizen can make a lot of money overseas, tax free, and without renouncing citizenship. I think Karee gets the point. I think he will leave the exact tax code stuff to his accountant.

But if it helps Carlos...

Before moving yourself or your family overseas to take a job, consult a tax professional.

I think Karee mentions he did that and converetd a tax lein into a $5500 refund. Maybe you didn't read that part. So that you can sleep better...I was NOT the person that did Karee's taxes and got him the refund.