Guns from out-of-state make up the grand majority of city crimes

[Karee 4,190]

It will? You are old enough to remember the fuel embargos of the 70's, the demand for fuel was very high, but the supply was limited and restricted. You got gas when you were told you could get gas, and if you could afford it, not when you wanted it.

Apples and Oranges. Gasoline is an expendable commodity that can only be used once.

Firearms are like diamonds. They last (almost) forever.

[Teddy B 17,252]

Apples and Oranges. Gasoline is an expendable commodity that can only be used once.

Firearms are like diamonds. They last (almost) forever.

No, no, it's supply and demand remember. The demand of diamonds remains high and so does the supply, even though most people have at least one.

[Karee 4,190]

Okay, 90% or better of guns are part of either an arsenal or a collection. Fair enough?

That's good. If 90% of firearms are part of someone's aresenal/collection, more than likely they are being held by responsible gun owners who keep them secure. So if you go by those numbers, 10% of the guns are really the problem. 30 million seems more manageable than 300 million.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Okay, 90% or better of guns are part of either an arsenal or a collection. Fair enough?

Collection sounds demure, arsenal seems more threatening, and for many of the "collectors" here on VJ, probably more accurate. Like I tell my gun nutter friends, I don't need to hoard all those guns and ammo, it is enough for me to know that you do.

[Teddy B 17,252]

That's good. If 90% of firearms are part of someone's aresenal/collection, more than likely they are being held by responsible gun owners who keep them secure. So if you go by those numbers, 10% of the guns are really the problem. 30 million seems more manageable than 300 million.

Did we just have a breakthrough?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

That's good. If 90% of firearms are part of someone's aresenal/collection, more than likely they are being held by responsible gun owners who keep them secure. So if you go by those numbers, 10% of the guns are really the problem. 30 million seems more manageable than 300 million.

Slim and Gary and Charles! impress you as responsible people?

[Karee 4,190]

No, no, it's supply and demand remember. The demand of diamonds remains high and so does the supply, even though most people have at least one.

OK, lets say I buy into your comparison (which I don't). There's a finite number of diamonds. There is not a finite number of firearms. They can be made very easily.

I have a friend from Peshawar, Pakistan. He tells me that they make copies of AK-47s and RPGs all day long there and they can be bought very easily in the markets there. I tend to believe him. Now if some poor Pakistanis can make these things with probably little education, and little money, that tells me that supply will never be a problem.

Actually digging around, I found this:

Located in between Kohat and Peshawar, a wide variety of firearms are produced in the town, from anti-aircraft guns to pen-guns. Weapons are handmade by individual craftsmen using traditional manufacturing techniques, usually handed down father-to-son. The quality of the guns is generally high and craftsman are able to produce replicas of almost any gun. Guns are regularly tested by test-firing into the air.^[1] Darra is controlled by the local tribesmen.^[2] Darra Adam Khel is an unkempt village of two story wood and adobe buildings in the sand stone hills near the Kohat Frontier region. It is the gun factory of the Tribal Areas, located around 40 kilometres (25 mi) south of Peshawar on the road to Kohat. The drive takes around forty minutes. Darra (Adam Khel denotes a clan of the Afridi Tribe) is inside Pakistan but beyond Pakistani law—and very nearly beyond comprehension. Most of the people here seem to make or sell just one thing, i.e., guns, while the second largest business of the inhabitants is transport.

In the arcades off the main road are workshops. Hundreds of closet-sized rooms where men and boys make working copies of the entire world's guns with nothing more than hand tools and a small drill press. The tools are astonishingly primitive, yet the forges turn out accurate reproduction of every conceivable sort of weapon, from pen pistols and hand-grenades to automatic rifles and anti-aircraft guns. The copies are so painstakingly reproduced that even the serial number of the original is carried over. A Darra gunsmith, given a rifle he hasn't seen before, can duplicate it in around ten days. Once the first copy is made, each additional copy takes two or three days due to the templates created. Handguns, being more complex, take a little longer.

In Darra, almost three-fourths of the people are in the gun trade. Pen pistols and walking stick guns are popular here. Around 400-700 guns are made in Darra each day and the number is rising with the adoption of more tools. These guns are more than enough for the Pashtuns themselves. Many guns find their way to and from Afghanistan. In the 1980s, heroin was shut down in the markets after consultation with the tribal elders due to foreign pressure, but guns, known as the ornaments of a Pashtun, could not be eliminated. Manufacturing of heavy ammunition, however, has been closed down.

Travel by foreigners to Darra is forbidden due to security reasons. Travelers can drive by bus or car through Darra without a permit but its not advisable because tribal police (Khasadar) visits the market to check for any locale rules and law violation. foreigner without permits are taken to secure places to avoid any misshape .

The Darra arms trade first fired up in 1897. This arms trade has won a fame for the Adam Khel Afridis who are the major inhabitants of the town.

Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darra_Adam_Khel

So that snippet above tells me that the supply will ALWAYS be there if there is a demand.

Slim and Gary and Charles! impress you as responsible people?

It's hard to tell from an internet message board. Slim and Charles do seem like responsible people from what I can see here. I'm not sure that Gary is even a real person. I suspect Gary maybe a teenager logging on from a computer in his mother's basement.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Karee

[Teddy B 17,252]

OK, lets say I buy into your comparison (which I don't). There's a finite number of diamonds. There is not a finite number of firearms. They can be made very easily.

I have a friend from Peshawar, Pakistan. He tells me that they make copies of AK-47s and RPGs all day long there and they can be bought very easily in the markets there. I tend to believe him. Now if some poor Pakistanis can make these things with probably little education, and little money, that tells me that supply will never be a problem.

Actually digging around, I found this:

Source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darra_Adam_Khel

So that snippet above tells me that the supply will ALWAYS be there if there is a demand.

It's hard to tell from an internet message board. Slim and Charles do seem like responsible people from what I can see here. I'm not sure that Gary is even a real person.

We are told there is a finite number of diamonds, just like we are told there is a finite supply of oil, but the demand for oil keeps getting larger and the supply has little to no problem keeping up. Diamonds are just like oil in tat respect. But I really don't see how that affects anything until the supply actually begins to dry up. Once the supply of oil or diamonds begins to dry up, will they be easier or more difficult to obtain?

Pakistan is basically a war zone, there are no gun or weapons restrictions there. It's not a fair comparison to the US.

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

Those numbers seem encouraging if only 30% of homes have a firearm, down from 50 % in the 70s. I assume they are only counting legal firearms though.

Seems odd to call it a collection at all, based solely on numbers. Arsenal may be more appropriate. When I think collection, I think old antique guns.

how old does a gun need to be to be considered an antique?

[Karee 4,190]

We are told there is a finite number of diamonds, just like we are told there is a finite supply of oil, but the demand for oil keeps getting larger and the supply has little to no problem keeping up. Diamonds are just like oil in tat respect. But I really don't see how that affects anything until the supply actually begins to dry up. Once the supply of oil or diamonds begins to dry up, will they be easier or more difficult to obtain?

Pakistan is basically a war zone, there are no gun or weapons restrictions there. It's not a fair comparison to the US.

Mexico is basically a war zone. If the Pakistanis can make AK-47s with no problems, why can't the Mexicans do it? They probably don't do it now, because there's no market for them, since they can be purchased easily in the U.S. Make them difficult to obtain in the U.S. and who knows?

[Karee 4,190]

how old does a gun need to be to be considered an antique?

No idea. How old does anything need to be, to be considered an antique?

Here's what the ATF considers an antique:

ATF has previously determined that certain muzzle loading models are firearms and subject to the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA). All of these guns incorporate the frame or receiver of a firearm that is capable of accepting other barrels designed to fire conventional rimfire or centerfire fixed ammunition. Therefore, these muzzle loading models do not meet the definition of “antique firearm” as that term is defined in the above-cited § 921(a)(16) and are “firearms” as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)

…

1. any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
2. any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica —
   1. is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
   2. uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
3. any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

Furthermore, as firearms, the models described above, as well as other similar models, regardless of installed barrel type, are subject to all provisions of the GCA. Persons who purchase these firearms from licensed dealers are required to fill out ATF Form 4473 and are subject to a National Instant Background Check System (NICS) check. Convicted felons and certain other persons are prohibited from receiving and possessing these firearms.

The following is a list of weapons that load from the muzzle and remain classified as firearms, not antiques, under the purview of the GCA since they incorporate the frame or receiver of a firearm:

1. Savage Model 10ML (early, 1st version).
2. Mossberg 500 shotgun with muzzle loading barrel.
3. Remington 870 shotgun with muzzle loading barrel.
4. Mauser 98 rifle with muzzle loading barrel.
5. SKS rifle with muzzle loading barrel
6. RPB sM10 pistol with muzzle loading barrel.
7. H&R/New England Firearm Huntsman.
8. Thompson Center Encore/Contender.
9. Rossi .50 muzzle loading rifle.

This list is not complete and it frequently changes; therefore, there may be other muzzle loaders also classified as firearms. As noted, any muzzleloader weapon that is built on a firearm frame or receiver falls within the definition of a firearm provided in § 921(a)(3).

Source:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.html#antique-definition

[Teddy B 17,252]

Mexico is basically a war zone. If the Pakistanis can make AK-47s with no problems, why can't the Mexicans do it? They probably don't do it now, because there's no market for them, since they can be purchased easily in the U.S. Make them difficult to obtain in the U.S. and who knows?

There will always be the criminal element that desires these weapons, nothing will change that. But that doesn't mean we just throw our arms up in the air and surrender.

[GandD 5,966]

how old does a gun need to be to be considered an antique?

Isn't there a classification for "modern" fire arms. I think its like anything past 1897? I dunno, they talk about it all the time on pawn stars since he doesn't have a gun license. He's only allowed to buy "non-modern" firearms. Maybe a Nevada thing.

Edited August 21, 2013 by GandD

[Karee 4,190]

There will always be the criminal element that desires these weapons, nothing will change that. But that doesn't mean we just throw our arms up in the air and surrender.

I'm not advocating "the throwing up of arms and surrender" I'm simply saying that I don't think restricting firearms is gonna do $hit if people want them. The key is getting rid of the demand.

[Harsh_77 718]

There will always be the criminal element that desires these weapons, nothing will change that. But that doesn't mean we just throw our arms up in the air and surrender.

Curtail these criminal element not the law abiding citizens with introduction of stupid laws that restrict the magazine size or ban a weapon just based on looks or how a handle is placed.