Does Stand Your Ground Apply

[GandD 5,966]

Did you go through during the day? If you did, I bet you were amazed by what a difference a mile makes.

Hopefully both of them since they're cops.

Well, the victim is dead. The other, free. No charges.

[Penny Lane 8,159]

Did you go through during the day? If you did, I bet you were amazed by what a difference a mile makes.

Yep, around 8 or 9 in the morning.

And yeah. It's amazing how quickly everything around you changes.

[decocker 7,198]

Oh yeah, everyone involved was white for those of you that need these sort of details.

cowboys follow their own code of law.

[Teddy B 17,252]

Maybe just sell them Wayne County. The rest of Michigan is a pretty nice place, except for maybe Flint. Flint can probably be saved though since it's smaller. Crossing the bridge or tunnel into Windsor is like being transported into an entirely different world. It's bizarre.

Stay on the Canadian side unless you're armed.

Detroit/Windsor was my POE. It was interesting.

I've driven from Detroit Metro Airport to Windsor through the tunnel twice, hopefully never again. I never thought I'd be so happy to be OUT of the US.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Teddy B

[Karee 4,190]

Yep, around 8 or 9 in the morning.

And yeah. It's amazing how quickly everything around you changes.

Since you're in Wisconsin, you probably took I-94 out of there.

[GandD 5,966]

Here's the linky if you guys care. It should also be noted for those keeping tabs that a white guy killed a white guy and got away with it.

http://www.bgdailynews.com/news/local/grand-jury-hears-testimony-no-indictment-in-bradshaw-shooting/article_b039f22c-03da-5f3a-9a6a-1d50e909f5cc.html

ETA, Sorry I guess there were developments since I last checked in. These witnesses say the victim drew first and then the shooter killed him.

Edited July 25, 2013 by GandD

[Karee 4,190]

Oh yeah, everyone involved was white for those of you that need these sort of details.

That's why no one heard about it.

[Penny Lane 8,159]

Since you're in Wisconsin, you probably took I-94 out of there.

Correct!

I didn't want to drive that way again, so I made sure when we went home to visit, we went through Sault Ste Marie, Michigan instead. Much nicer!

[Karee 4,190]

Correct!

I didn't want to drive that way again, so I made sure when we went home to visit, we went through Sault Ste Marie, Michigan instead. Much nicer!

Yeah that part of Michigan is really nice. Most of Michigan is really nice except Detroit.

[Teddy B 17,252]

Yeah that part of Michigan is really nice. Most of Michigan is really nice except Detroit.

I've also had the joy of driving up and down Rte 75. Yay!

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Like I've said before, If GZ was black, he probably had a better chance of being convicted. Now that doesn't mean I think GZ was guilty, it means I think he was innocent, but there's a higher probably that that he would have been unfairly convicted if he was black. Being black carries a stigma that blacks commit more crimes than whites. It's actually not really a stigma, it's a statistical fact. Our justice system should not convict people based on stigmas and statistics or whatever. Unfortunately that is the case sometimes, and it's wrong. Having said that, blacks do commit crimes at a much higher rate compared to whites. You can cherry pick rape and mass murders and say "See whites do bad things as well" I get it.

Now, I get your point that racism still exists out there. I know that it does. What's the best way go about fixing it? That I don't know, but I think I know how NOT to try and fix it. This trial is a perfect example of how NOT to fix it. I can't speak for every white person out there, but I found myself wondering if I had a kid that was in the same situation as TM, what would happen? Would the president speak about it? Would there be rallies? Would there be 24 hour wall to wall news coverage? Of course not. There has not been one SINGLE piece of evidence that GZ killing TM had anything to do with his race. None. Zero. Zilch. Yet now this case has become the case study of what's wrong with race relations in this country. Why? I'm not seeing it. There's no evidence that GZ did anything but defend himself. Now Marvin you can sit there all day dreaming up these "what if this, what if that" scenarios, but it doesn't change the evidence that TM jumped on the guy and start beating him and GZ killed him for it. I personally think it would go along way for folks like Al and Jesse to say" look, the guy was defending himself and race didn't play a part in this" I know that the sun will rise in the west before that ever happens, and therein lies the problem.

In my mind this case has had the opposite effect of bringing people together because there was no racial component to this case other than GZ happened to be white and TM happened to be black. So it's a bunch of outrage over racism that doesn't exist in this case. There's alot of dead black people that are dead due to racism. TM isn't one of them.

As far as the hiring practices you mentioned above, how do you propose to solve those issues? Do you think forcing people to hire minorities is the solution? I'd say it would have the opposite effect.

This isn't about GZ, this was in response to your post about us blaming GZ for our problems. But since you went there:

Race has everything to do with it. Here is the evidence that you overlook. How was the situation handled. GZ had ample chance to talk to TM or even let the cops do their jobs. He didn't even identify himself because he painted TM as a criminal. Now why do you think that was? When in the history of our world has something like this happened to a white child? Do you have any idea what it's like to be questioned when you're where you are supposed to be? To be judged and told you don't belong? A large majority of black america sees this because we have to live it every single day of our lives. The reason blacks are outraged is because not only do we have to contend with drugs, gangs, bad school systems, prisons, laws that unfairly target us, we have to contend with the premise of being thugs, animals and worse, which opens us up to be killed in this fashion. So don't tell me it isn't about race. You said we committ more crimes, true. Try living in the places we live and the conditions we live with. But when whites committ white collar crimes, rapes, mass shootings, domestic violence, we don't use that to judge them. Being a black male is almost a death sentence in some places. You don't have that stigma. White folks go somewhere, shoot and kill people, and the next day you could walk to the store with an AK-47 in plain view without being profiled. You have that privelage, we will never have it.

GZ would have never treated a white child this way, period. He saw a criminal and he treated him like one. Blacks are predispositioned to be violent, remember? You can't show me a time where a neighborhood watch acted this way in a white neighborhood. Look at how this has divided us as people, if GZ did this to a white woman, he'd be called a stalker, or a would be rapist for sure. But when black is thrown into the picture, the rules do a 360. Now he's just a neighborhood watch who went "above and beyond" in his duties. That term is used to describe stellar work, not killing an unarmed teenager. But no one sees that, he broke every single rule in the handbook for what? To catch a kid walking home from the store, who wasn't even committing a crime in the first place. If this kid was white, there would be no outrage, no protests, the president wouldn't speak on it. Why? Because GZ would be in jail, simple as that. Hell Mr. Dooley had a better SYG defense than Zimmerman could make up. And yet, he was convicted for manslaughter. Even Teddy said TM could have been on his way to committ a crime, at 7pm, with no weapons, no tools, talking on the phone, not to a gang member, not to a drug dealer, but a female friend. He didn't have bluetooth, what was he going to do, break in the house while using his shoulders to hold the phone to his ear?

As for the hiring practices, that's an easy fix.Understand that a kid from a poor neighborhood that gets straight A's is trying to make something for themselves, they might not have the same opportunities as someone more fortunate than them. Judge the resume, not the name or color of skin. Stop asking black folks if they are part of a gang at 45 years old, I don't know of any crip/blood accountants out there. Don't ask for their facebook password so you can see their friends list and not hire them because they have friends named Shaniqua. Don't assume they've been to prison just because their black. Treat us as equals and maybe you'd see some progress. That's why crying about AA is such a joke, you act as if minorities are taking every job from white people. The numbers aren't even close, there isn't even a study for it, it's that small. It's been happening to us for centuries, but when someone tries to even the playing field, folks start crying. Black folks didn't even want it, they wanted to earn it the right way. They wanted to be seen as equals, not inferior.

The sad fact is if TM was white, this would have never happened, he would have left him alone. Even if there had been break ins and white folks were the culprits. There are so many examples I can post where blacks were targeted by some law or rule, but the white folks that did it got a pass. I guess OJ getting off makes up for it.

[Teddy B 17,252]

Marvin, do you think I am racist, or that I am incapable of viewing this case without looking at the color of the participants?

[Karee 4,190]

This isn't about GZ, this was in response to your post about us blaming GZ for our problems. But since you went there:

Race has everything to do with it. Here is the evidence that you overlook. How was the situation handled. GZ had ample chance to talk to TM or even let the cops do their jobs. He didn't even identify himself because he painted TM as a criminal. Now why do you think that was? When in the history of our world has something like this happened to a white child? Do you have any idea what it's like to be questioned when you're where you are supposed to be? To be judged and told you don't belong? A large majority of black america sees this because we have to live it every single day of our lives. The reason blacks are outraged is because not only do we have to contend with drugs, gangs, bad school systems, prisons, laws that unfairly target us, we have to contend with the premise of being thugs, animals and worse, which opens us up to be killed in this fashion. So don't tell me it isn't about race. You said we committ more crimes, true. Try living in the places we live and the conditions we live with. But when whites committ white collar crimes, rapes, mass shootings, domestic violence, we don't use that to judge them. Being a black male is almost a death sentence in some places. You don't have that stigma. White folks go somewhere, shoot and kill people, and the next day you could walk to the store with an AK-47 in plain view without being profiled. You have that privelage, we will never have it.

GZ would have never treated a white child this way, period. He saw a criminal and he treated him like one. Blacks are predispositioned to be violent, remember? You can't show me a time where a neighborhood watch acted this way in a white neighborhood. Look at how this has divided us as people, if GZ did this to a white woman, he'd be called a stalker, or a would be rapist for sure. But when black is thrown into the picture, the rules do a 360. Now he's just a neighborhood watch who went "above and beyond" in his duties. That term is used to describe stellar work, not killing an unarmed teenager. But no one sees that, he broke every single rule in the handbook for what? To catch a kid walking home from the store, who wasn't even committing a crime in the first place. If this kid was white, there would be no outrage, no protests, the president wouldn't speak on it. Why? Because GZ would be in jail, simple as that. Hell Mr. Dooley had a better SYG defense than Zimmerman could make up. And yet, he was convicted for manslaughter. Even Teddy said TM could have been on his way to committ a crime, at 7pm, with no weapons, no tools, talking on the phone, not to a gang member, not to a drug dealer, but a female friend. He didn't have bluetooth, what was he going to do, break in the house while using his shoulders to hold the phone to his ear?

As for the hiring practices, that's an easy fix.Understand that a kid from a poor neighborhood that gets straight A's is trying to make something for themselves, they might not have the same opportunities as someone more fortunate than them. Judge the resume, not the name or color of skin. Stop asking black folks if they are part of a gang at 45 years old, I don't know of any crip/blood accountants out there. Don't ask for their facebook password so you can see their friends list and not hire them because they have friends named Shaniqua. Don't assume they've been to prison just because their black. Treat us as equals and maybe you'd see some progress. That's why crying about AA is such a joke, you act as if minorities are taking every job from white people. The numbers aren't even close, there isn't even a study for it, it's that small. It's been happening to us for centuries, but when someone tries to even the playing field, folks start crying. Black folks didn't even want it, they wanted to earn it the right way. They wanted to be seen as equals, not inferior.

The sad fact is if TM was white, this would have never happened, he would have left him alone. Even if there had been break ins and white folks were the culprits. There are so many examples I can post where blacks were targeted by some law or rule, but the white folks that did it got a pass. I guess OJ getting off makes up for it.

Somehow you have an insight into GZ's mind that I'll never have. It's pretty amazing how you can tell what he was thinking. It's obvious you think this happened because he's black and nothing is gonna change that in your mind. That's really unfortunate, but it is what it is.

The rest of it is just going around in circles. So they only ask for black people's Facebook passwords? You can't let go of someone not getting a job because of their name, but at the same time refuse to acknowledge that the black community is responsible for most of the problems they face. Until that changes, nothing else will change. I know 100% for sure that I never said anything even close to the effect of black people taking white peoples jobs. I've brought up in threads about less qualified black students being admitted to universities in place of more qualified white students, which is racism. My argument has always been, and still is, how can you expect to be treated equally when you're a given special treatment? Very simple question. As far as what happened centuries ago, I really don't give a $hit, because it doesn't relate to the present. People that are stuck in the past, can never live in the present. It seems you can't live in the present.

As to your last statement, the real sad fact in this, is that if TM didn't start beating the hell out of GZ, he'd still be alive enjoying his Skittles and Iced Tea.

It must suck being the eternal victim.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Somehow you have an insight into GZ's mind that I'll never have. It's pretty amazing how you can tell what he was thinking. It's obvious you think this happened because he's black and nothing is gonna change that in your mind. That's really unfortunate, but it is what it is.

The rest of it is just going around in circles. So they only ask for black people's Facebook passwords? You can't let go of someone not getting a job because of their name, but at the same time refuse to acknowledge that the black community is responsible for most of the problems they face. Until that changes, nothing else will change. I know 100% for sure that I never said anything even close to the effect of black people taking white peoples jobs. I've brought up in threads about less qualified black students being admitted to universities in place of more qualified white students, which is racism. My argument has always been, and still is, how can you expect to be treated equally when you're a given special treatment? Very simple question. As far as what happened centuries ago, I really don't give a $hit, because it doesn't relate to the present. People that are stuck in the past, can never live in the present. It seems you can't live in the present.

As to your last statement, the real sad fact in this, is that if TM didn't start beating the hell out of GZ, he'd still be alive enjoying his Skittles and Iced Tea.

It must suck being the eternal victim.

It goes back to your line of thinking. You said that since blacks committ 90% of crime. Whites committ 100% white collar crime, a large percentage of rape, and many other crimes, are they treated equally? I'm not talking about the past, I'm talking today. I'm talking about judging someone for their own merits, not their community. I use we because it affects all of us. Is it right that I am judged even though I have never committed a crime in my life, that I don't have a criminal record? Should I have to shoulder the burden of proof because some douchebag criminal has the same skin color as me? Does that even make sense to you? If 95% of mass shooters were committed by white people, and someone said, let's make it harder for white males to get guns, all the focus came to black folks. Look at them they said, they're worse than us, they said. No one cares about our plight until their life is cramped. We aren't saying we are the victims, we are saying look at the system we are up against. Most folks play the hand they are dealt, some win, some lose. It's about character. I have never complained about my situation, I'm grateful that I am serving my country and I can pay bills, plus take care of my family. But it breaks my heart that a young black man who walks home from the store is treated like an animal, and then when he fought back he was killed.

Also please show me where it says a black person is less qualified. You said yourself when you see a person of color as a doctor or lawyer you can't help but see AA. Has it ever occured to you they got there on their own sweat? That's the type of racism that it alive and well today. It's not KKK and lynchings, it's the attitude that we can't be as good as you. Just like you think it's ok to ask me for my password, last time I checked there's this thing called privacy. Those employers asking this, it's not white people they ask. It's blacks with degrees, with suits and ties, like you can't be more than a dressed up thug because of some Menace to Soceity stereotype we all seem to fit.

Marvin, do you think I am racist, or that I am incapable of viewing this case without looking at the color of the participants?

Nope, I don't think Karee is either. What I think is that there are things that both of you can't see because it's not part of your world. And how could it be? I don't have to read GZ's mind to know he wouldn't treat a white child that way. Look at his actions, from the beginning, TM was a criminal. Folks talk about his record, like it's a blueprint for a criminal mastermind. But GZ's assaults and domestic violence? No big deal. Even when the cops asked him why didn't he just tell TM who he was to try to defuse the situation, GZ was completely baffled by this revalation. By his own admission TM was doing something wrong so why would he identify himself to a criminal? All of his actions were wrong, from a common sense standpoint, and a neighborhood watch standpoint. Go back through this thread, when folks say they would do the same thing, and I ask, would you follow them for 4 minutes, would you get out of the car, would you not identify yourself, they just skip over this and keep posting. His actions led to the confrontation, had he just asked him BEFORE he called the cops, BEFORE he started following him, BEFORE he got out of the car and chased him, I'll say that TM might have given him attitude and kept it moving, or he might have just said I'm going to my dad's girl's house.

[slim 1,530]

Treat us as equals and maybe you'd see some progress.

So.... when is BET going off the air? When is the UNCF going to start collecting money for everyone of all colors? When is the NAACP going to start representing the advancement of all people? When is the Congressional Black Caucus going to include representatives of all colors? When is Tyler Perry going to cast white actors???

Like claiming "justice for Trayvon" while simultaneously ignoring the 11,000+ deaths of other young black folks in the time since his passing, the self-imposed double standard that black people not only embrace - but promote - is what makes white folks and Americans of all colors continue to accept the notion that "black people are special."

For those who truly know the ins and outs of dealing with people of all races they know it has very little to do with race but with culture. And until black people as a whole distance themselves from "that culture" (ghetto-### ignant-### parasitic welfare hoodrats) change is highly unlikely to come about. When grown men continue to wear their pants below their underwear it's no wonder they're not taken seriously. And yes, that includes white folks too.

But the difference there is it's not acceptable for 99.9% of white men to wear their pants below their underwear. Until black people make their peers pull their pants up... don't expect much from the rest of the nation.

Allowing, accepting, and promoting "special considerations" is akin to keeping those pants low. Yes, I'm talking to you, Mr. Sharpton. Yes, I'm talking to you, Mrs. Jackson Lee. And yes, I'm talking to you... Trayvon Martin.