Juror pushes for new laws following Zimmerman trial

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/usarmy_holo.html

He'll come back to tell you that technically speaking Buchenwald wasn't a "death camp". And that's true. It wasn't an extermination camp like the one in Auschwitz, for example. But that doesn't make Buchenwald any less of a place where undesirables were disposed of. They were just tortured longer before they expired or were killed. I've been to that place as I have been to Sachsenhausen just north of Berlin. Chilling places. Unbelievable what went on in these camps. And people knew.

[xebec 195]

Though not extermination camps, a good number of concentration camps were located in Germany and well over half a million people were murdered and disposed of there. One of them just north of the capital from which some 100,000 people never returned. I've been to a number of these places. Chilling. The local people around those camps were all very much German. As was the staff. Even in those extermination camps that were located outside of Germany. People in Germany knew - maybe they weren't aware of the extend of the murdering that went on. Maybe they weren't aware of the level of cruelty that went on in these places. But they knew that there were one way trains leaving town. Which is why some courageous Germans helped those that were targeted hide and escape. If they didn't know, why would they offer that help?

So I suppose my great-grandparents and grandparents just outright lied to me. Sure thing.

I'm sure they had a story to tell, as did mine. Our grandparents can hardly tell the story of an entire people, however. That is why historians are still working on this topic, and will be for years. I simply pointed out that the historigraphy doesn't support your belief on this particular subject.

[xebec 195]

He'll come back to tell you that technically speaking Buchenwald wasn't a "death camp". And that's true. It wasn't an extermination camp like the one in Auschwitz, for example. But that doesn't make Buchenwald any less of a place where undesirables were disposed of. They were just tortured longer before they expired or were killed. I've been to that place as I have been to Sachsenhausen just north of Berlin. Chilling places. Unbelievable what went on in these camps. And people knew.

Since the topic of debate was whether Germans knew about the extermination of the Jews (carried out almost in its entirety in the 6 death camps in Poland), the difference is relevant.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I'm sure they had a story to tell, as did mine. Our grandparents can hardly tell the story of an entire people, however. That is why historians are still working on this topic, and will be for years. I simply pointed out that the historigraphy doesn't support your belief on this particular subject.

There may have been people that did not want to know and some in remote areas of the country that genuinely did not know. But people near the concentration camps and in the major cities were very aware that something awefully wrong went on behind those fences and where the trains were headed. Again, if people did not know, then what did they help hide the targets for? Why did they help them escape? From what?

Edited July 19, 2013 by Mr. Big Dog

[xebec 195]

There may have been people that did not want to know and some in remote areas of the country that genuinely did not know. But people near the concentration camps and in the major cities were very aware that something awefully wrong went on behind those fences and where the trains were headed. Again, if people did not know, then what did they help hide the targets for? Why did they help them escape? From what?

I'm not arguing that Germans didn't know that the Nazi regime was brutalizing a wide swath of the population, including Jehova's Witnesses, Romani, Homosexuals, political dissenters, and Jews. I don't know any historian who argues this. The originalpoint made by several posters here was that the majority of Germans knew about the mass extermination of Jews. I was simply pointing out that this opinion is based on popular notions of history (historical memory, perhaps), not on any grounding in the literature.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Since the topic of debate was whether Germans knew about the extermination of the Jews (carried out almost in its entirety in the 6 death camps in Poland), the difference is relevant.

Yes but again, what did some heroic Germans save their Jewish neighbors from? They knew that these trains went to a place from where nobody ever returns. Why did they come up with the propaganda film Theresienstadt after having granted access to the transfer camp to the Red Cross? That's right, to assure Germans that contrary to popular belief, Jews were treated well by the regime. Big propaganda effort on Goebbels' part. Why was that necessary if Germans did not know?

The originalpoint made by several posters here was that the majority of Germans knew about the mass extermination of Jews.

Lets say they had a gut feeling. See my post above. The Nazis knew that people had caught on to this. So they engaged their propaganda machine to assure people that it wasn't so.

[xebec 195]

Yes but again, what did some heroic Germans save their Jewish neighbors from? They knew that these trains went to a place from where nobody ever returns. Why did they come up with the propaganda film Theresienstadt after having granted access to the transfer camp to the Red Cross? That's right, to assure Germans that contrary to popular belief, Jews were treated well by the regime. Big propaganda effort on Goebbels' part. Why was that necessary if Germans did not know?

Arguing that no Germans suspected, or were convinced that Jews were being deported East in preparation for genocide would be equivalent to naming all Germans dullards. I made no such argument. As I pointed out already, my replies were in answer to the unfounded claims of some that the majority of Germans knew about the mass extermination of Jews. An excellent treatment of the reason that information about the Jews didn't spread in the normal fashion within Nazi Germany is tendered in Gelately's book "Backing Hitler" (referenced in the article I cited above).

[mrrobj 20]

Because he's dead and isn't coming back doesn't mean people shouldn't discuss the trial or, more importantly, discuss the laws in Florida because they set a dangerous precedent.

The majority of things discussed in this forum are things we can't personally change.

I don't think people are b*tching about the outcome, more about how the outcome was inevitable due to the laws in Florida. I think a lot of people (except one or two) agreed that the prosecution did not prove their case, there was not enough evidence, and that's that.

There were multiple posts the other day claiming that the jury found him not guilty because they believed his story and genuinely believed his innocence. It turns out that doesn't seem to be true.

Again, if it's not something you want to waste time discussing, that's fair. But others seem to want to keep discussing it and I don't see the harm in it.

Stories like this that capture the attention of so many people don't disappear the moment the story ends.

I know I ask you this a lot, but what the hell are you talking about?

This story is about the jury having a problem with the law and the instructions they were given.

It has nothing to do with "AA". Nothing to do with being out on the street.

This is the jury being discussed.

If you can't stay on topic, start your own.

Very, very well stated!!

I guess some posters on her believe we should live in a society where we should never question laws or make any effort whatsoever to change them......regardless of how unjust they may be.....

Karee....r u fan of Hitler????....get real.... This is not Thailand......

[mrrobj 20]

If you do your research, you will see in Flordia drug dealers have got away after shooting a rival gang member based on SYG but no one was talking about it.

Eric holder nor NAACP cared for it until now and suddenly they are all out as law being unfair and unjust, that just shows they really do not care about AA they just making it political issue and trying to gain advantage.

Its sad that AA community do not see that how politicans are exploting a situation to their advantage.

Get real!!

The NRA was a significant influence in pushing the SYG laws......for the sole purpose of pushing more guns into streets!! They can care less about savings any lives, as money is their only motive.

What advantage is Eric Holder or NAACP getting? How are they exploiting the AA community??? I'm confused?? Do they have gun lobbyist filling their pockets with cash???

[Jacque67 7,328]

Arguing that no Germans suspected, or were convinced that Jews were being deported East in preparation for genocide would be equivalent to naming all Germans dullards. I made no such argument. As I pointed out already, my replies were in answer to the unfounded claims of some that the majority of Germans knew about the mass extermination of Jews. An excellent treatment of the reason that information about the Jews didn't spread in the normal fashion within Nazi Germany is tendered in Gelately's book "Backing Hitler" (referenced in the article I cited above).

Gelately has a political agenda. The book is biased.

[Karee 4,190]

Karee....r u fan of Hitler????....get real.... This is not Thailand......

What's not Thailand? Why would I be a fan of Hitler? Sometimes I think computers should have a breathalyzer connected to the power button.

[xebec 195]

Gelately has a political agenda. The book is biased.

So you agree that your post about Germans was wrong. Got it.

[xebec 195]

Get real!!

The NRA was a significant influence in pushing the SYG laws......for the sole purpose of pushing more guns into streets!! They can care less about savings any lives, as money is their only motive.

Why do you say that the intent was to "push more guns into streets," rather than to pursue the political interests of the NRA membership?. Why do you say "money is their only motive?" Why doesn't this assessment apply to the actions of the NAACP? Sounds like a typical progressive "critque," but I'm interested to see if you can back any of this up. My NRA membership dues are coming up....I need to make an informed descision ;-

[GandD 5,966]

Very, very well stated!!

I guess some posters on her believe we should live in a society where we should never question laws or make any effort whatsoever to change them......regardless of how unjust they may be.....

Karee....r u fan of Hitler????....get real.... This is not Thailand......

Just because there's a Thai flag next to his name doesn't mean he's from Thailand. Geez. I'm not from Canada either.

[Jacque67 7,328]

So you agree that your post about Germans was wrong. Got it.

?

All historians have a political agenda, including you? Why you referenced a book, I have no idea (actually I do but #######). Maybe American documentaries about Nazi power are less objective than those maybe those made by the BBC? I didn't reply to your previous request for evidence of collision amongst the German populace because there is so much out there I would have to spend several days to post links.

I doubt your motives, but whatever this is the Internet,