Just went and Got Carry permit for GA

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I regularly see Vermont plates here, not lots but often enough. Not like RI or NH which I see daily. I disagree with the any person being able to carry concealed. A felon convicted of a crime should not be able to carry concealed, IMO. Ditto for people convicted of aggravated assault, etc. People with a know history of mental illness, Alzheimer's, dementia, schizophrenia, mentally challenged or retarded, blind people, habitual drug and alcohol offenders, etc.

I believe that there are about 15 or so states that have a higher percentage of gun ownership than Vermont and they all have a higher crime rate. No one will ever convince me that demographics do not play a big part in the crime rate. There is a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

Regarding drivers licenses...the point being that if you have stricter regulations for DLs in MA, all those other plates represent people with less strict requirements. How does MA's strict DL law protect you from being killed by a rogue Vermonter in town for a Red Sox game? But I think I answered your question RE; drivers licenses

Ok so let me clarify that for sake of simplicity we consider that Federal law over-rides state law and felons are not even allowed to possess, let alone carry, firearms. That is not necessary to cite (or perhaps you demonstrate it is) because that is a federal law.

Felons are not "allowed" to carry concealed in Vermont. I am sure many do. I bet they do in MA also. People who have been adjudged mentally unstable are also not allowed to have guns. Again, such things are universal and fall under "all else being equal". If I do not state it specifically it is because it does not need stating.

You are also assuming that because the state does not issue a license for them, then people with mental illness and felons will not carry guns. Right. Like if we do not issue marraige licenses to Gay people, they will stop being Gay.

The fact is that your state, MA, issues very few CC permits and usually it is to white, Irish, politically connected hacks for the Kennedy or Kerry family. DuVall Patrick's bodygards can get them, so can Mumbles Menino's friends. MA issues fewer legal CC permits than just about any state except possibly Hawaii. Yet the crime rate soars above that of neighboring Vermont.

In most years ALL states have higher crime than Vermont. In some years, we are 49th lowest in a really bad year when we have 7 homicides we may make it to 48th lowest (low population does not help when calculating "rates" despite the mathmatically challenged idiots that say it does) Vermont is frequently called "the Safest State"

Firearms ownership has little to do with reducing crime. I have stated that clearly many times and even you seem not to comprehend that. I will say it again FIREARMS OWNERSHIP RATES DO NOT AFFECT CRIME RATES. We do not have low crime in Vermont because we own more guns than people in MA. Or NH, or TX.

What affects crime rates is the abilty people have to be armed, not whether they are actually armed or carry guns. People in Vermont that do not own firearms and never carry concealed are protected by the fact that they could be armed. 100% of law abiding citizens, not metally defective, are ALLOWED to be armed in Vermont. in Texas it is maybe 5% or 8% or whatever. It is a definable number. In Vermont the definable number is 100%...there may be only 1% of people actually armed in Vermont, or it could be 20% NO ONE KNOWS...and THAT is the point.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I'd like to add that I do think drivers ed training is good for kids before they get their license. If it saves one life, it is well worth it, IMO. Lots of kids don't have responsible parents to teach them driving safety. Too many kids only have one parent, and some should only be called parents because they were responsible for conceiving the child. I was fortunate to learn gun safety at an early age from my father and my uncle. Today there are so many that wouldn't have someone teach them at home, so a gun safety program can be a good thing, again, IMO.

Many people don't take the time to learn proper gun handling and safety. I have known more than one person that carried and never fired a single shot with the gun they carry. They didn't really like shooting, they bought the gun for protection. And as I asked, don't you think it would be a good idea to do a bit of practicing with it? Someone like that with a gun scares me.

I do not disagree with any form of training being good. Alla and Sergey also had drivers ed, plus what I taught them but it was not required...just sayin' Because they were 18+ they did not need to do anything but take the driving test. The idea is that the driving test itself requires some skills and cannot be passed without SOME training. Maybe true, but the test lasts 10 minutes! Anyone can drive good for 10 minutes!

I also support firearms training for all people, preferably in schools. Too many kids from "gun free" homes are exposed to firearms at some point, they need to know, at least, that it is not a video game and to leave them alone. The NRA has an excellent non-political program called "Eddie Eagle" it is available for your school if they do not already have it.

You may see my car in Boston as I get there fairly often. Both for my business and one of Alla's modeling agencies is there but she is doing less of that since she is back in school. And #######!!!!! It seems like at every red light as soon as it turns green people just start honking their horns...immediately! It is a clear sign that not everyone can carry a gun!

Edited July 13, 2013 by Gary and Alla

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Regarding drivers licenses...the point being that if you have stricter regulations for DLs in MA, all those other plates represent people with less strict requirements. How does MA's strict DL law protect you from being killed by a rogue Vermonter in town for a Red Sox game? But I think I answered your question RE; drivers licenses

Ok so let me clarify that for sake of simplicity we consider that Federal law over-rides state law and felons are not even allowed to possess, let alone carry, firearms. That is not necessary to cite (or perhaps you demonstrate it is) because that is a federal law.

Felons are not "allowed" to carry concealed in Vermont. I am sure many do. I bet they do in MA also. People who have been adjudged mentally unstable are also not allowed to have guns. Again, such things are universal and fall under "all else being equal". If I do not state it specifically it is because it does not need stating.

You are also assuming that because the state does not issue a license for them, then people with mental illness and felons will not carry guns. Right. Like if we do not issue marraige licenses to Gay people, they will stop being Gay.

The fact is that your state, MA, issues very few CC permits and usually it is to white, Irish, politically connected hacks for the Kennedy or Kerry family. DuVall Patrick's bodygards can get them, so can Mumbles Menino's friends. MA issues fewer legal CC permits than just about any state except possibly Hawaii. Yet the crime rate soars above that of neighboring Vermont.

In most years ALL states have higher crime than Vermont. In some years, we are 49th lowest in a really bad year when we have 7 homicides we may make it to 48th lowest (low population does not help when calculating "rates" despite the mathmatically challenged idiots that say it does) Vermont is frequently called "the Safest State"

Firearms ownership has little to do with reducing crime. I have stated that clearly many times and even you seem not to comprehend that. I will say it again FIREARMS OWNERSHIP RATES DO NOT AFFECT CRIME RATES. We do not have low crime in Vermont because we own more guns than people in MA. Or NH, or TX.

What affects crime rates is the abilty people have to be armed, not whether they are actually armed or carry guns. People in Vermont that do not own firearms and never carry concealed are protected by the fact that they could be armed. 100% of law abiding citizens, not metally defective, are ALLOWED to be armed in Vermont. in Texas it is maybe 5% or 8% or whatever. It is a definable number. In Vermont the definable number is 100%...there may be only 1% of people actually armed in Vermont, or it could be 20% NO ONE KNOWS...and THAT is the point.

MA DL law doesn't protect anyone from a rogue driver. My point was that education does. In some states it is mandatory, in others it is not. But the license is legal in all 50 states no matter what.

As far as federal laws for firearms, I freely admit I am not knowledgeable. But you frequently state that ANY person should be able to carry concealed with no special permit. I don't think it is reasonable for anyone to assume that because you didn't state it specifically it doesn't need stated. I don't know anyone here who is as well versed on firearms laws as you are. I freely admit I don't know. It is your area of expertise.

I am well aware that the bad guys can get guns without a permit. But the way you state ANY person leads me to think of others, like those with dementia, mentally retarded etc, people who aren't going to get a gun through the illegal channels, yet can walk into a store and purchase.

I'm sorry, I still don't by the notion that the possibility of everyone being armed is responsible for a low crime rate. Pick a state with concealed carry and gun ownership laws similar to Vermont and compare the crime rate. Or is Vermont the only state that allows anyone to carry? I ask because I do not know. The death penalty did nothing to reduce the crime rate. Demographics is still a huge part of it. No disrespect, I just don't agree.

[himher 634]

MA DL law doesn't protect anyone from a rogue driver. My point was that education does. In some states it is mandatory, in others it is not. But the license is legal in all 50 states no matter what.

As far as federal laws for firearms, I freely admit I am not knowledgeable. But you frequently state that ANY person should be able to carry concealed with no special permit. I don't think it is reasonable for anyone to assume that because you didn't state it specifically it doesn't need stated. I don't know anyone here who is as well versed on firearms laws as you are. I freely admit I don't know. It is your area of expertise.

I am well aware that the bad guys can get guns without a permit. But the way you state ANY person leads me to think of others, like those with dementia, mentally retarded etc, people who aren't going to get a gun through the illegal channels, yet can walk into a store and purchase.

I'm sorry, I still don't by the notion that the possibility of everyone being armed is responsible for a low crime rate. Pick a state with concealed carry and gun ownership laws similar to Vermont and compare the crime rate. Or is Vermont the only state that allows anyone to carry? I ask because I do not know. The death penalty did nothing to reduce the crime rate. Demographics is still a huge part of it. No disrespect, I just don't agree.

Texas is very liberal on self-defense and the right to self-defense and our crime rate is right in the middle of the pack. It is very high in urban areas and very low in rural areas. Vermont's numbers are probably on par with rural areas here and rural areas everyone else where folks are generally more respectful of others and their property than they seem to be in urban areas.

I still prefer to have the RIGHT to defend myself and family without question and without having to worry about proving that I did everything possible to avoid having to but I do not believe that it is my job or my neighbor's job to pack heat and go out looking for an excuse to.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

I agree that crime is generally lower in urban areas and Vermont is basically an urban area. The state has a population of about 626,000 and the largest city has about 42,000 people. The demographics are primarily white with over 95% if the population being white. And I agree that people in rural areas are generally respectful of other people's property. I live in MA and whenever I go to NH or ME, it is refreshing how friendly the people are. You can walk down the street as a complete stranger and people will say hi to you. Try that in Boston or any major city. I live in a suburb that is primarily white and we have a very low crime rate. And most of the crime and mischief is committed by local whites. I firmly believe that demographics and population density have a lot to do with the crime rate.

I too prefer having the right to defend myself and my family. At one time in MA, you were supposed to try and flee your home rather than defend yourself with deadly force. Imagine that! Thankfully that was changed. But in public here it's a different story. I too would never go looking for trouble, but it is nice to be able to be prepared as best you can in case it does happen.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

Texas is very liberal on self-defense and the right to self-defense and our crime rate is right in the middle of the pack. It is very high in urban areas and very low in rural areas. Vermont's numbers are probably on par with rural areas here and rural areas everyone else where folks are generally more respectful of others and their property than they seem to be in urban areas.

I still prefer to have the RIGHT to defend myself and family without question and without having to worry about proving that I did everything possible to avoid having to but I do not believe that it is my job or my neighbor's job to pack heat and go out looking for an excuse to.

Somebody posted a graphic the other day that hit the nail on the head.

If gun murder rates are so over the top high in places that have 100% gun control, and it is because they get guns from places that don't have strict gun control, and guns are the root of the problem.

Then why do the places they buy the guns not have highest gun crime rates in the nation also.

[Ban Hammer 13,583]

Somebody posted a graphic the other day that hit the nail on the head.

If gun murder rates are so over the top high in places that have 100% gun control, and it is because they get guns from places that don't have strict gun control, and guns are the root of the problem.

Then why do the places they buy the guns not have highest gun crime rates in the nation also.

that would be this one

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I agree that crime is generally lower in urban areas and Vermont is basically an urban area. The state has a population of about 626,000 and the largest city has about 42,000 people. The demographics are primarily white with over 95% if the population being white. And I agree that people in rural areas are generally respectful of other people's property. I live in MA and whenever I go to NH or ME, it is refreshing how friendly the people are. You can walk down the street as a complete stranger and people will say hi to you. Try that in Boston or any major city. I live in a suburb that is primarily white and we have a very low crime rate. And most of the crime and mischief is committed by local whites. I firmly believe that demographics and population density have a lot to do with the crime rate.

I too prefer having the right to defend myself and my family. At one time in MA, you were supposed to try and flee your home rather than defend yourself with deadly force. Imagine that! Thankfully that was changed. But in public here it's a different story. I too would never go looking for trouble, but it is nice to be able to be prepared as best you can in case it does happen.

So population is the reason for crime?

Your numbers leave out important information. more than 1/3 of the population lives in one county. Chittenden, it is a conglomeration of cities around Burlington. If taken as one area it is as densely populated as many of the cities in MA. Crime is no higher there, in fact it has a lower rate than many of the rural counties. Chittenden county is in no way rural. It is congested and full of modern niceties like heavy traffic and long lines for stuff.

Burlington High School has students speaking 17 languages, Winnoski HS, right across the river from Burlington has students speaking 21 languages. Chittenden county is a huge refugee area for Somalians, Bosnians, Bhutanese, Vietnamese. Alla's largest Client is the Vermont Refugee Re-Settlement Program and, believe it or not "Association of Africans Living in Vermont" Many Africans from central Africa speak RUSSIAN because of Soviet influence and she is often asked to interpret for them when no one speaking their native language is available. No kidding!

But i do not believe race cause crime, do you? Population? Density? Vermont is far more densly populated than Quebec but Quebec has higher crime.

And if these other reasons are why there is crime...how are they addressed with GUN LAWS? I mean if anyone wants to tell me that guns are NOT the reason for crime, it is OK, but then why do you support GUN LAWS?

The fact is that in a society where ANYone can be armed (some albeit illegally, OK spooky?) there CAN be low crime. There IS low crime. If results would vary in your state, then the reason is not guns and cannot be corrected with restrictions on guns.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

that would be this one

Thank you. I love that. Just so much truth in that little cartoon

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Right, They get a disease from someone that isn't sick.

that would be this one

[spookyturtle 9,466]

So population is the reason for crime?

Your numbers leave out important information. more than 1/3 of the population lives in one county. Chittenden, it is a conglomeration of cities around Burlington. If taken as one area it is as densely populated as many of the cities in MA. Crime is no higher there, in fact it has a lower rate than many of the rural counties. Chittenden county is in no way rural. It is congested and full of modern niceties like heavy traffic and long lines for stuff.

Burlington High School has students speaking 17 languages, Winnoski HS, right across the river from Burlington has students speaking 21 languages. Chittenden county is a huge refugee area for Somalians, Bosnians, Bhutanese, Vietnamese. Alla's largest Client is the Vermont Refugee Re-Settlement Program and, believe it or not "Association of Africans Living in Vermont" Many Africans from central Africa speak RUSSIAN because of Soviet influence and she is often asked to interpret for them when no one speaking their native language is available. No kidding!

But i do not believe race cause crime, do you? Population? Density? Vermont is far more densly populated than Quebec but Quebec has higher crime.

And if these other reasons are why there is crime...how are they addressed with GUN LAWS? I mean if anyone wants to tell me that guns are NOT the reason for crime, it is OK, but then why do you support GUN LAWS?

The fact is that in a society where ANYone can be armed (some albeit illegally, OK spooky?) there CAN be low crime. There IS low crime. If results would vary in your state, then the reason is not guns and cannot be corrected with restrictions on guns.

Statistics prove that certain races commit more crimes per percentage of the population. Vermont lacks those races. Up your black population to 17% or and see if the crime rate stays the same. If that makes me racist then so be it. I don't think that all blacks are criminals, but statistics show they commit a high percentage of crime for their percentage of the population, regardless of the underlying reasons. Maybe if the underlying reasons are cured, statistics will reverse themselves. I don't believe the crime rate is caused by guns at all. I don't believe that restricting guns is going to drop the crime rate. And I stand by my belief that demographics play a huge part in the crime rate.

Edited July 13, 2013 by spookyturtle