excellent read - New Yorker, "...Stand Whose Ground?"

[Harsh_77 718]

Someone who knows the law better than me will have to answer ... can you claim self defense in an attack you initiated?

Thats good question, I don't know.

In this case so far we do not know who initiated the fight, did TM jumped on GZ or GZ threw the first punch.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

I don't know if the man is guilty.. No amount of hypothetical race baiting posts is going to solve that riddle.

I don't race bait. I state what I see. Talk to the folks that called TM everything under the sun but never knew him. I never called GZ these things, even thought I don't disagree with what he did.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

No, any allegedly reasonable person can see that this wouldn't have happened if TM didn't jump on GZ and start pounding him. TM had a cell phone. He should have called the cops if he was scared of the cracker following him. Kinda like GZ called the cops.

While it is possible TM jumped on and pounded GZ that is purely speculation. TM certainly could have done so, but it is not speculation that GZ called the police, only to then disregarded the advice to not follow TM, nor is it speculation that GZ was carrying a gun against the policies and procedures of the Neighborhood Watch. So you have only speculation to support your premise that TM was solely at fault for getting shot. The adult GZ bears no responsibility? Really?

Not necessarily criminal responsibility but GZ carries not one whit of responsibility of any kind?

Edited July 10, 2013 by ready4ONE

[Karee 4,191]

While it is possible TM jumped on and pounded GZ that is purely speculation.

How is that speculation? Didn't witnesses see TM on top? DIdn't the ballistics guy testify that TM was on top when he was shot? I must be following a different trial.

[B_J 2,752]

While it is possible TM jumped on and pounded GZ that is purely speculation. TM certainly could have done so, but it is not speculation that GZ called the police, only to then disregarded the advice to not follow TM, nor is it speculation that GZ was carrying a gun against the policies and procedures of the Neighborhood Watch. So you have only speculation to support your premise that TM was solely at fault for getting shot. The adult GZ bears no responsibility? Really?

Not necessarily criminal responsibility but GZ carries not one whit of responsibility of any kind?

1. There is evidence and witnesses that support TM pounding on GZ.

2. It is purely speculation on your part that GZ disregarded the advice to not follow TM.

3. I have no idea if there is a universal neighborhood watch organization that lists policies and procedures; however, I know GZ had the constitutional right to carry a gun.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

How is that speculation? Didn't witnesses see TM on top? DIdn't the ballistics guy testify that TM was on top when he was shot? I must be following a different trial.

Because no one saw what led into that position. If in the initial confrontation GZ pushed TM or something to the like, did TM have a right to hit back? If TM pushed GZ and started whaling on him, it would make sense that GZ shot him since he was in fear for his life. But no one saw that part, so it's still speculation on what led up to the fight.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Because no one saw what led into that position. If in the initial confrontation GZ pushed TM or something to the like, did TM have a right to hit back? If TM pushed GZ and started whaling on him, it would make sense that GZ shot him since he was in fear for his life. But no one saw that part, so it's still speculation on what led up to the fight.

And since there is so much speculation, I as a juror would have doubt and acquit.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

1. There is evidence and witnesses that support TM pounding on GZ.

2. It is purely speculation on your part that GZ disregarded the advice to not follow TM.

3. I have no idea if there is a universal neighborhood watch organization that lists policies and procedures; however, I know GZ had the constitutional right to carry a gun.

1. No one saw what led up to TM pounding on GZ.

2. He was told not to follow him on the 911 call.

3. http://www.sacsheriff.com/crime_prevention/documents/neighborhood_watch_04.cfm

Citizen Patrols

An effective tool for some Watch programs to use is a citizen patrol. It is up to the community in conjunction with law enforcement to decide whether a patrol is needed. Citizen patrols are volunteers who walk or drive an area on a regular basis to report incidents and problems to the police and provide a visible presence that deters criminal activity. They have no policing powers, carry no weapons, are nonconfrontational, and always coordinate activities with law enforcement. A citizen patrol can cover a neighborhood, an apartment lobby or complex, a business district, or a park; some use bicycles, in-line skates, or cars to cover larger areas. They contact the police dispatcher through two-way radios or cellular phones donated by a local business. Cameras or video equipment may be used to record suspicious activity. Many patrols are based in a Neighborhood Watch program or work closely with one.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Actually the dispatcher didn't tell GZ do not follow. When GZ had he was looking to see where he went, the dispatcher said we don't need you to do that. Moot point anyway since he wasn't breaking the law either way.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Actually the dispatcher didn't tell GZ do not follow. When GZ had he was looking to see where he went, the dispatcher said we don't need you to do that. Moot point anyway since he wasn't breaking the law either way.

The 911 dispatcher asked specifically if he was following him, he said yeah. She said we don't need you to do that. If I was following a suspicious person and 911 said we don't need you to do that, I'd stop. But in all honesty, I wouldn't follow someone who is aware of my presense in the first place.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Someone who knows the law better than me will have to answer ... can you claim self defense in an attack you initiated?

Yes, you can. You cannot claim immunity from prosecution in that case - which Mr. Zimmermann notably did not - but you can still claim self defense if you are the initial aggressor. See the statute below.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.— The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html

Edited July 10, 2013 by Mr. Big Dog

[Penny Lane 8,159]

Thank you!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Zimmerman is trying to say that it was self defense.

It doesn't seem like there's enough evidence to prove it wasn't.

It's like Casey Anthony, though that case actually had MORE evidence. The jury thought she killed her daughter, but there wasn't enough evidence for them to be 100% sure and she walked.

A manslaughter conviction from a self-defense claim works differently from a murder conviction.

[Penny Lane 8,159]

A manslaughter conviction from a self-defense claim works differently from a murder conviction.

What does the prosecution have to prove in order to get a manslaughter verdict?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Actually the dispatcher didn't tell GZ do not follow. When GZ had he was looking to see where he went, the dispatcher said we don't need you to do that.

Zimmermann understood the dispatcher as telling him NOT to follow Martin. His written statement to police is clear on that point.

"The dispatch told me not to follow the suspect & that an officer was in route. As I headed back to my vehicle..."