non-binding religious wedding allowed?

[sunandmoon 450]

The Philippines is different than Thailand. according to Philippine Family Code, a marriage license is required

even for a church wedding. If someone can provide a link to otherwise, I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

I suppose you might be able to get a priest to perform some kind of ceromony. as have been stated the Embassy know the local laws. If the Embassy is aware you had a ceromony at a church, you could have problems.

[orion44 0]

The Philippines is different than Thailand. according to Philippine Family Code, a marriage license is required

even for a church wedding. If someone can provide a link to otherwise, I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

I suppose you might be able to get a priest to perform some kind of ceromony. as have been stated the Embassy know the local laws. If the Embassy is aware you had a ceromony at a church, you could have problems.

Well, she attends a Baptist church in the Philippines, and we were going to have the ceremony at a place of prayer, but not a church.

[sunandmoon 450]

your twist of words, place of prayer not a church., seems to incidate your looking for validation of your decision. it's not paranoia to point out possible risks, as one member seemed to imply. I admit I haven't provided a link that says a non-binding regilious ceromony is prohibited by the Manila Embassy. I also haven't seen one that says it's allowed.

best of luck to you with whatever you choose to do.

Edited November 30, 2006 by roymcn3rd

[maya62 7]

My one thought is, if she was turned down for the visa at the interview because she mentioned the ceremony, or turned around at the port of entry because of it, wouldn't it just be for the time it takes for them to check that we are indeed, not married?

Perhaps someone else can shed more light, but I believe the onus would be on you to prove you are not married. And how would you do that? And how long would it take?

I think you risk a much lengthier delay, such as the time it takes to either appeal/reopen whatever action they take with your case, or possibly to re-file for a K3 (because that may end up being a shorter route than some kind of appeal).

I wonder if anyone knows which route others took when turned around at the POE?

Maya

[no name 1]

Place of prayer/church, same thing in many eyes. Including possibly POE officers.

Why can't you just make it an engagement party/celebration?

Is it worth risking it all to go back to SQUARE ONE after a former border officer told you not to????

Edited November 30, 2006 by devilette

[zyggy 9]

My one thought is, if she was turned down for the visa at the interview because she mentioned the ceremony, or turned around at the port of entry because of it, wouldn't it just be for the time it takes for them to check that we are indeed, not married?

Perhaps someone else can shed more light, but I believe the onus would be on you to prove you are not married. And how would you do that? And how long would it take?

Exactly... That's the problem.. in most places it can't be proven...

I would also like to warn people that in some countries that carry a common-law tradition (most provinces of Canada and India are two that come to mind at the moment), if neither of the parties were married before the ceremony, the ceremony itself creates a legal marriage. No marriage license required.

Once the visa is cancelled by CBP, you're done... You have to apply for another visa at the Consulate. Since the reason for visa cancellation was due to suspected marriage, the parties would have to get married and then file an I-130. Or if you want to fight it, file another I-129F for a K1, but that would be silly.

I think you risk a much lengthier delay, such as the time it takes to either appeal/reopen whatever action they take with your case, or possibly to re-file for a K3 (because that may end up being a shorter route than some kind of appeal).

I wonder if anyone knows which route others took when turned around at the POE?

Maya

There is no reopen.. there is no appeal. Once the CBP has cancelled the visa, it cannot be reissued. That's how it works. You have to apply for a new visa.

To the OP, if the terms of the K1 do not fit into the culture (ask Yodrak about that, he did a K3 because of Thai cultural considerations), then you should consider not getting a K1 and get the K3. Trying to flirt around the edges of the law, or trying to bend the immigration system to meet short term ends, can get you into trouble. A misunderstanding about the nature of your wedding could rear its head at any stage of the process, at entry, at adjustment, or at naturalization. If there are questions that you may have entered under circumstances that were not in accordance with the conditions of the visa, you could be in for a long bumpy ride... If your initial admission is found to have not be in accordance with the terms of the visa, then any benefit that has been granted subsequent to that event would be withdrawn.

What are the chances... probably very low that the above could happen. But you should know that it has happened and will continue to happen. In my mind, the goal is to get through this process with as little room for doubt and misunderstanding on the part of the US Government as possible so that my loved one and I can sleep easy at night that there will be no figurative skeletons that could be found in our closet that could come back to haunt us and throw everything that we have built in our lives taken away if that skeleton is found. If you willing to live with that skeleton... then go right ahead and carry on...

Whatever you do, best of luck...

Edited November 30, 2006 by zyggy

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Soon after registering with VJ, this is one of the first cautionary tales I encountered.

A woman "married" her Moroccan fiance over the phone in Denver, Colorado before visiting him IRL. They met, decided to marry, and he was subsequently issued a K1 visa. When her man got to JFK, he was wearing a ring, and when asked, told the officers he was already married to his intended. They shipped him home, banned from the US for many years for "misrepresentation".

Now, the US doesn't recognize over-the phone-marriages, nor does Morocco recognize religious marriages without legalities. So, they know there is no legal marriage. Nonetheless, the couple held themselves out as married in Morocco, and such a tiny thing as a ring on the customary finger set the current sad state of affairs in motion.

I cannot recommend "pretending" to be married, especially if you do it to appease those who will consider you to be really married afterwards.

These damm POE officers have to understand that not every culture has the same beliefs and they too have customs and traditions that need to be considered.

ditto! we want a religious ceremony first too, i emailed the embassy and they told me to ask my religious leader if it was possible to do things in that order, and he said yes, so, i just hope we have no problem; they're supposed to respect other cultures' traditions, and mostly, what people consider their family values. Good luck!

This couple was "married" in a house of God by a religious cleric who told them it was ok to "marry" like that. What the hell do most clerics know about law? Please, don't get your legal advice from priests, ministers, rabbis or imams. They are hardly immigration experts.

Edited November 30, 2006 by szsz

[zyggy 9]

Let's make this clear for everyone...

The terms of the K visa are such that when you enter the US, you must be legally free and able to marry the US CItizen who filed the I-129F petition.

It is not the responsibility of the CBP to prove that you are satisfying the terms of the visa.. it is the responsibility of the alien to prove that they are satisfying the terms of the visa. If the alien or anyone else brings doubt into that they are satisfying the terms of the visa.. the CBP will not allow that individual to enter the US until they prove that they are satisfying the terms of the visa...

It is not the responsibility of the CBP to understand all the cultural norms of the world, nor is it their responsibility to know all the legalities involved with what makes a legal marriage around the world. If someone's cultural norms do not fit in with one of the visa choices that are offered, then it is the responsibility of the alien to choose the appropriate visa that does...

It is the responsibility of the alien to prove to the CBP that they are legally free and able to marry at the moment that are entering the US...

It is easy to prove that one is not legally free and able to marry at the moment in time when you're at the POE through a marriage certificate... It is impossible to prove that one IS legally free and able to marry at the moment in time..

I know people have said that some countries issue a certificate of No marriage... But unless it was issued immediately before you got on the plane, a CBP officer would have no idea if you ran into City Hall, got married, and then went straight to the airport... Because things like that happen...or if there was a lag in getting the information on their database, because that happens too.. just ask all the people who have been victims of deed and lein fraud because of the lag between the time the document is submitted to the county and the time it is actually placed in the database.

People are trying to paint the CBP as the bad guy in this situation... they're just enforcing the well documented and publicized terms that are associated with each visa type. In this case, the bad guy is the person who applies for the visa that does not fit into what they want because it's "faster" and then cry when the CBP makes the legitimate claim of whether they are complying with the terms of the visa that they are entering on... I think those people should take a good hard look at the mirror...

Edited November 30, 2006 by zyggy

[Yodrak 7]

matt,

There is a risk, it's real, it has consequences, but it's a low risk if one knows with certainty that the law of the country involved is 'on their side' (as it is in Thailand). There's no need to be paranoid, but there is a need to be reasonably cautious and think about how the things one does and says can be understood (or mis-understood) by others.

My wife and I had a wedding ceremony in Thailand before she came to the US on a K1 visa. We had no problem. But about the same time a guy who sent his Thai wedding pictures along with his I-129f petition, because he felt that it showed the seriousness of the relationship, spent 3 months collecting evidence to answer the RFE asking for proof that he wasn't already married.

Yodrak

And yes Yodrak, I understand that the POE officers jurisdiction is the USA and has no knowledge of Thailand. Hmm perhaps we can be paranoid, and mail back all the pictures from the ceremony, instead of say, hand carrying them. Thanks again for all the input.

[Yodrak 7]

zyggy,

I can't address the OP's situation, I don't know what it take to create a government-recognized marriage in the Philippines.

In Thailand, since there are Thai participants in this thread, the one and only thing that creates a marriage is the two people walking into the local registrar's office and signing the appropriate papers. Anything else is not relevant. Many Thai couples have a wedding ceremony - and it's essentially the same ceremony as is used for many types of occassions - but never register. They aren't married. But I wouldn't expect a CIS or CPB officer to know that, and so I would not do anything to bring such a ceremony to their attention.

My inlaws are a bit more sophisticated than many Thai - they wanted their daughter to have a registered marriage, they weren't satisfied with just as ceremony as many Thai are. That's why I withdrew my I-129f petition, got registered, and submitted an I-130.

Yodrak

.....

To the OP, if the terms of the K1 do not fit into the culture (ask Yodrak about that, he did a K3 because of Thai cultural considerations), then you should consider not getting a K1 and get the K3. Trying to flirt around the edges of the law, or trying to bend the immigration system to meet short term ends, can get you into trouble. ......

[sunandmoon 450]

In the Philippines, a Marriage License is required before a civil or regilious marriage ceromony. th OP would

probably be correct the are not legally married. However, if the Embassy has an indication there was a marrige ceromony, you could be put on AR.The Embassy will not accept a Cenomar or Affidavit form Local Registar from you, they will do a marriage check of their own. that could cause a long delay before a visa is issued.

there is also the risk at the POE, as has been well pointed out.

It is not the cultural norm that you would be shunned by family if a regilous ceromony is not performed. I, like others with fiancee's from the Philippines, had an engagement party. her family was very happy with that, they felt part of our marriage experience.