What Happens Without Affirmative Action: The Story Of UCLA

[Peter_Pan 661]

If you follow any professional sports (my guess is you don't), you'd know that the top draft picks don't always pan out. The above quote from that article exemplifies that - that measuring sticks are often inaccurate in determining success - whether it's in professional sports, business or even academics. What they can look at statistically, is when teams, companies and universities thrive and they most often thrive from diversity.

You are constantly making one fallacy that keeps our discussion from going nowhere, that is, you think university should admit people based on how successful they predict they might be in the future. In my opinion, the admission committee's role isnt to play the fortune teller.

To make an analogy, let's say you have two students, A and B. A is failing some classes, but is doing wonderfully in the math lectures, while B is doing much better generally, but only averages in the math department. According to your logic, it is ok that a teacher fails student A, while giving B a high mark on the premises that A isnt going to graduate anyways, while B will and have a successful future.

I may be wrong, but isnt the NBA almost overwhelmingly black? How about putting in a quota for that too? Why do sports have no quota, yet other domains do?

~~~~

In my idea world, admissions should be blind to everything but the requirements - that includes race, age, sex, social status and so on. I dream of a world in which the best of the best are rewarded.

On a more personal level, I find nothing more insulting than the idea that I could get a job because I am a woman - that's why I stay away from jobs that "particularly encourages women and minorities to apply". I'd rather scrub floors than teach at a university knowing it was mostly my ####### who got in the way of more qualified applicants.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Peter_Pan

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

What's wrong with that thought? Granted it shouldn't be the first the thought he has when going to an emergency room. I find myself thinking the same things at times. Did this person get this position because they are qualified, or did they get it because of their race? That's a rational thought IMO when you make hiring decisions based on race rather than qualifications.

I agree we have a long way to go. One place to start would be to bring an end to racist programs like affirmative action.

Well.... when I see a doctor for the first time, my first thought isn't "Wow how did HE/SHE get here ???? Was it because he/she took some deserving person's place in medical school and got some kind of fast-track to success because of their race/religion/ethnicity/looks/connections/etc. and not their qualifications ????"

I'm not in the hospital very often, thanks God, but my optometrist is black; so is the manager of my dentist's office. And of course I've been treated by many African-American and Hispanic health workers as well as whites, Asians and others. In all my life, I have never noticed any correlation between poor medical care and the race of the provider. Even in spite of Affirmative Action.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Falastin_Qalbi

[Karee 4,191]

You are constantly making one fallacy that keeps our discussion from going nowhere, that is, you think university should admit people based on how successful they predict they might be in the future. In my opinion, the admission committee's role isnt to play the fortune teller.

To make an analogy, let's say you have two students, A and B. A is failing some classes, but is doing wonderfully in the math lectures, while B is doing much better generally, but only averages in the math department. According to your logic, it is ok that a teacher fails student A, while giving B a high mark on the premises that A isnt going to graduate anyways, while B will and have a successful future.

I may be wrong, but isnt the NBA almost overwhelmingly black? How about putting in a quota for that too? Why do sports have no quota, yet other domains do?

~~~~

In my idea world, admissions should be blind to everything but the requirements - that includes race, age, sex, social status and so on. I dream of a world in which the best of the best are rewarded.

On a more personal level, I find nothing more insulting than the idea that I could get a job because I am a woman - that's why I stay away from jobs that "particularly encourages women and minorities to apply". I'd rather scrub floors than teach at a university knowing it was mostly my ####### who got in the way of more qualified applicants.

I agree that it should be based on requirements. However in alot of cases, the applicant may come from a poor public school system. You can't really blame that on the student. I'd like to see young poor people get better chances in life as long as they are willing to put in the work. It's a two-way street.

I have an issue when race is brought in to the equation.

[RGinWA 816]

What's wrong with that thought? Granted it shouldn't be the first the thought he has when going to an emergency room. I find myself thinking the same things at times. Did this person get this position because they are qualified, or did they get it because of their race? That's a rational thought IMO when you make hiring decisions based on race rather than qualifications.

I agree we have a long way to go. One place to start would be to bring an end to racist programs like affirmative action.

Yet in the business world I see tall white men in charge of departments that they have no business being in charge of. I mean they look like a manager would look right? Yet time and time again I find working with them that they are clueless. I sit in departmental meetings and it's like a scene from Mad Men in the 60's.

I see that kind of discrimination more than someone getting a job because they are a minority.

I base a persons worth on what they do, not what that position traditionally looks like or skin color.

The above happens way more than you'd think.

AA levels the field so you won't think that one day...discrimination because of race is a lot higher in the US in hiring practices than the few who benefit from AA.

[Karee 4,191]

Well.... when I see a doctor for the first time, my first thought isn't "Wow how did HE/SHE get here ???? Was it because he/she took some deserving person's place in medical school and got some kind of fast-track to success because of their race/religion/ethnicity/looks/connections/etc. and not their qualifications ????"

I'm not in the hospital very often, thanks God, but my optometrist is black; so is the manager of my dentist's office. And of course I've been treated by many African-American and Hispanic health workers as well as whites, Asians and others. In all my life, I have never noticed any correlation between poor medical care and the race of the provider. Even in spite of Affirmative Action.

That's the thing, qualifications are lowered in order to meet affirmative action mandates. Who doesn't want the best and the brightest when it comes to anything, especially medical care? I know I do regardless of their race.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Well.... when I see a doctor for the first time, my first thought isn't "Wow how did HE/SHE get here ???? Was it because he/she took some deserving person's place in medical school and got some kind of fast-track to success because of their race/religion/ethnicity/looks/connections/etc. and not their qualifications ????"

I'm not in the hospital very often, thanks God, but my optometrist is black; so is the manager of my dentist's office. And of course I've been treated by many African-American and Hispanic health workers as well as whites, Asians and others. In all my life, I have never noticed any correlation between poor medical care and the race of the provider. Even in spite of Affirmative Action.

Exactly. I've been to the hospital recently and most of the physicians that cared for me were minorities. One Hispanic doc and a couple of Middle Eastern fellas. Not only did Affirmative Action not come to mind immediately but it actually never came to mind at all.

[Karee 4,191]

Yet in the business world I see tall white men in charge of departments that they have no business being in charge of. I mean they look like a manager would look right? Yet time and time again I find working with them that they are clueless. I sit in departmental meetings and it's like a scene from Mad Men in the 60's.

I see that kind of discrimination more than someone getting a job because they are a minority.

I base a persons worth on what they do, not what that position traditionally looks like or skin color.

The above happens way more than you'd think.

AA levels the field so you won't think that one day...discrimination because of race is a lot higher in the US in hiring practices than the few who benefit from AA.

I agree with you on the first point. There's way too many old white dudes running things. However, I disagree with you on the way to fix it. I don't agree that AA levels the playing field. What kind of message does it send that you don't have to work as hard and you'll get an extra benefit because of your race? I simply have a problem with people complaining about being treated differently because of their race, and at the same time asking to be treated differently because of their race. It's illogical.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

That's the thing, qualifications are lowered in order to meet affirmative action mandates. Who doesn't want the best and the brightest when it comes to anything, especially medical care? I know I do regardless of their race.

Is there any evidence that the quality of medical care is somehow not as good because of affirmative action ? I would be interested in seeing it.

[Karee 4,191]

Is there any evidence that the quality of medical care is somehow not as good because of affirmative action ? I would be interested in seeing it.

I'm not sure how you would perform a study like that. Maybe number of malpractice lawsuits? That probably wouldn't be valid though, because the blood sucking lawyers sue over anything these days with the hope of a settlement.

What about the qualified student that was denied a slot at a university because they were the wrong race? I'd like to see those numbers as well.

I'm having a hard time understanding why people have a problem with leveling the playing field based on income and ability to pay, rather than race? In the article I posted, it seemed to have the same effect. Minority enrollment went up.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

The process for applicants who wish to attend university is similar. Diversity is regarded as a vital part of that process. GPA's and test scores aren't the only thing they look at, nor are they necessarily the most important because we know statistically they don't indicate a higher success rate. Do you get it now?

Thats right a good C student stands just as much chance of finishing Harvard as the Valedictorian with a perfect 4.0 and two pages of accomplishments. Just in case you think I am serious that is sarcasm.

GPA's and test scores mean nothing... Diversity of class will determine it's success rate > OMG that may be the most ignorant thing I have ever heard.

You wanna show me those statics that prove those who have higher test scores and GPA's don't do any better in college than average and below average students.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

What's wrong with that thought? Granted it shouldn't be the first the thought he has when going to an emergency room. I find myself thinking the same things at times. Did this person get this position because they are qualified, or did they get it because of their race? That's a rational thought IMO when you make hiring decisions based on race rather than qualifications.

I agree we have a long way to go. One place to start would be to bring an end to racist programs like affirmative action.

Nothing is wrong with that thought. I want the best and brightest to be doctors, getting into medical school and finishing medical school is hard. I don't want a doctor that got preferential treatment because of the color of his skin. Yes I thought it and no I am not ashamed that I thought it..

I can't believe in this day and time we have to argue to liberals that we should not single people out by race.

If the playing field were level the thought would have never entered my mind. If you think the affirmative action, quotas and preferential treatment only happens in the admissions process you are fooling yourself.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

What kind of message does it send that you don't have to work as hard and you'll get an extra benefit because of your race? I simply have a problem with people complaining about being treated differently because of their race, and at the same time asking to be treated differently because of their race. It's illogical.

What kind of message does it send that white job applicants with a criminal record are more likely to get a call back from the prospective employers than black job applicants with similar qualifications without a criminal record? That's the reality we live in today. That's people being treated differently because of their race - preferential for being white in this case. That's affirmative action, isn't it? But we don't want to talk about that, do we?

Edited June 24, 2013 by Mr. Big Dog

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

Is there any evidence that the quality of medical care is somehow not as good because of affirmative action ? I would be interested in seeing it.

That doctor might have been the best E.R. doctor in the whole world, I don't know. The only thing that gets him judged are racist affirmative action polices, not the color of his skin

What kind of message does it send that white job applicants with a criminal record are more likely to get a call back from the prospective employers than black job applicants with similar qualifications without a criminal record? That's the reality we live in today. That's people being treated differently because of their race - preferential for being white in this case. That's affirmative action, isn't it? But we don't want to talk about that, do we?

Yes we can talk about it...Where is this happening ?

Also have you ever gone in a black owned business. ?? See many white faces ??

[elmcitymaven 9,712]

Disagree. Mind and mind alone should be the only criterion for admission.

The smarter you are, the easier it should be for you to see multiple points of view. A white student with a superior IQ can argue a problem from a variety of points of view, whereas a minority student who is less intelligent has only one point of view- his.

Universities are places for studying, not the UN.

This is the most ignorant, racist twaddle I've read in a while.

I speak from the experience of having attended and graduated from an Ivy League institution. I can assure you that in the classroom, there are students of all races, genders, ethnicities and classes who can and do speak from across a spectrum of views, as well as from one view alone. You speak from... where? What experience? Do you have friends who work in college admissions in the US? I do, and it is a job that involves more than numbers. Numbers, my dear, mean squat much of the time. I know more than one recipient of a perfect SAT score and a straight A record at high school who couldn't hack it.

All of you who are making guesses as what it is like at Harvard or Yale should can it. You have zero experience in this realm and are making at best highly uneducated guesses and at worst flat out racist conjecture about the supposed superiority of the white brain.

[RGinWA 816]

That doctor might have been the best E.R. doctor in the whole world, I don't know. The only thing that gets him judged are racist affirmative action polices, not the color of his skin

No, your mind got him judged. He was just doing his job.