An Upside of Immigration Inforcement

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Since we'll always have crime, should we just forget about enforcing the law?

Not quite the same, since being poor is not against the law.

But let's see how far we can go with this analogy. Yes, I believe we should

forget about enforcing the law *in other countries*. We should enforce the

law in our country, just as we should fight poverty in our country. By your logic,

to stop Mexican criminals from crossing the border we should go and fight crime

in Mexico. If we solve the crime problem in Mexico, it will automatically be

solved here too. Still think it's a good analogy?

You stated the fair trade is a load of ####### because it won't solve the poverty that has fueled illegal immigration. Explain to me how mexican farmers can compete under NAFTA with corn that is heavily subsidized here in the states? Isn't true competition one of the founding principals of free market capitalism that Milton Friedman professed? How does the market work without it? Corporatism is load of #######, IMO. It's done more to undermine the enterpreneurial endeavers that make an economy strong.

[mawilson 2,133]

Explain to me how mexican farmers can compete under NAFTA with corn that is heavily subsidized here in the states?

They can't compete -- that's the whole idea behind agricultural subsidies.

We destroy the competition by dumping our cheap agricultural produce on their

fragile markets.

Take away the subsidies and you'll push many American farmers into poverty,

as they would be unable to compete with their Mexican counterparts.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Explain to me how mexican farmers can compete under NAFTA with corn that is heavily subsidized here in the states?

They can't compete -- that's the whole idea behind agricultural subsidies.

We destroy the competition by dumping our cheap agricultural produce on their

fragile markets.

Take away the subsidies and you'll push many American farmers into poverty,

as they would be unable to compete with their Mexican counterparts.

Really? How many small farms are left in this country? Archer Daniel-Midland is one of the biggest recipients of farm subsidies and we know just how close they are to dire poverty. I'm all for helping out the small businessmen but let's not fool ourselves and really look at what farm subsidies mean these days.

One popular misconception that contributes to support for farm subsidies is that because they result in lower food prices, they are a boon to consumers. This ignores the fact that taxes pay for these subsidies. Any reduction in supermarket prices is paid for by your taxes, or someone else’s, whether you buy that ear of corn or not.

Farm subsidies are not intended to reduce the cost of food significantly. If prices fell too much, farmers would lose money. To prevent this, Congress also has “environmental” conservation subsidies that pay farmers not to cultivate their land, resulting in higher prices for crops that are thus made scarcer. Consequently, from 1995 through 2002 we paid $14 billion for farmland conservation subsidies that increased the price of our food.

Another myth is that farm subsidies can help U.S. exports, and therefore the U.S. economy, because they make our food cheaper for foreigners to buy. This claim ignores at least two realities. First, just as farm subsidies are a wealth transfer from some taxpayers to some domestic consumers, so they are a wealth transfer to foreign consumers. Second, farm subsidies are starting to cost U.S. exporters. Last April, the World Trade Organization ruled that U.S. cotton subsidies violated global trade rules, which could lead to billions of dollars in retaliatory tariffs or fines. The ruling will encourage developing countries to bring lawsuits against other subsidized U.S. exports.

If the United States were to stop subsidizing agriculture, it could encourage others to do the same. Franz Fischler, the European Union’s agriculture commissioner, announced at the Doha Round of international trade negotiations in May that, “Provided we get a balanced deal, we are ready to put all of [Europe’s] export subsidies on the table.” Given that European agricultural subsidies are almost six times greater per land unit than U.S. subsidies, American exporters would gain tremendously from an end to subsidies. Farmers in the developing world, who struggle in the face of unfair competition from crops subsidized by governments of the developed world, would also gain.

The most enduring political illusion is that farm subsidies are necessary to maintain the small family farmer. In fact, 77 percent of Americans support giving subsidies to small family farms, according to a 2004 poll by the PIPA/Knowledge Network. Small family farmers are not the primary dollar recipients of federal subsidies, however. According to the subsidy watchdog, Environmental Working Group, 71 percent of farm subsidies go to the top 10 percent of subsidy beneficiaries, almost all of which are large farms. In 2002, 78 farms, none small or struggling, each received more than a million dollars in subsidies. The bottom 80 percent of recipients average only $846 per year.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1340

[Fandango 1,439]

I am now waiting to be asked how often I support Fair Trade personally in order for my comments to have any validity.

Yes, it seems to be the parroted rhetoric these days.

No, it's called 'putting your money where your mouth is' Nowt wrong with that....it's like you wanna sit here on your pedestal and condem pretty much everything that's wrong with the world, yet you have no answers, no plans, no action. So you're just a complainer!

I've personally asked you twice what your actions are....I don't recall an answer the first time, but the second is in this thread with no answer either.

And now...I'll put my money where MY mouth is.....when *I* was a Democrat (and yes, shockingly I was)...I became politically active. Among other things, I: protested, I involved people, I was the President of the College Democrats. I worked on campaigns which I believed in....I held office in FL State Young Democrats. I walked in the rain for petitions to be signed, I did God knows how many charity functions/auctions/etc.

I wrote Congress, I went to Washington. I helped change legislature...I didn't just sit on my azz waxing lyrical as to everything that's wrong with the world, yet say

'oh well I support fair trade...'

well BRAVO! the bleeding hearts are upset that everyone's starving, and their contribution is paying a few dollars more so it can go down the money pipeline and maybe somewhere someone gets an extra 15 cents yet you all get the feeling that you've 'contributed to the cause'

Don't break your arms patting yourselves on the back!

And while someone can retort 'oh you were younger, not many responsibilities'....I managed a chain of salons working over 40 hours a week while taking 15 credit hours a semester....let alone my personal life. And yes, to this day there are things that bother me that I get off my azz to go contribute to....so yeah, put up or shut up

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I am now waiting to be asked how often I support Fair Trade personally in order for my comments to have any validity.

Yes, it seems to be the parroted rhetoric these days.

No, it's called 'putting your money where your mouth is' Nowt wrong with that....it's like you wanna sit here on your pedestal and condem pretty much everything that's wrong with the world, yet you have no answers, no plans, no action. So you're just a complainer!

I've personally asked you twice what your actions are....I don't recall an answer the first time, but the second is in this thread with no answer either.

And now...I'll put my money where MY mouth is.....when *I* was a Democrat (and yes, shockingly I was)...I became politically active. Among other things, I: protested, I involved people, I was the President of the College Democrats. I worked on campaigns which I believed in....I held office in FL State Young Democrats. I walked in the rain for petitions to be signed, I did God knows how many charity functions/auctions/etc.

I wrote Congress, I went to Washington. I helped change legislature...I didn't just sit on my azz waxing lyrical as to everything that's wrong with the world, yet say

'oh well I support fair trade...'

well BRAVO! the bleeding hearts are upset that everyone's starving, and their contribution is paying a few dollars more so it can go down the money pipeline and maybe somewhere someone gets an extra 15 cents yet you all get the feeling that you've 'contributed to the cause'

Don't break your arms patting yourselves on the back!

And while someone can retort 'oh you were younger, not many responsibilities'....I managed a chain of salons working over 40 hours a week while taking 15 credit hours a semester....let alone my personal life. And yes, to this day there are things that bother me that I get off my azz to go contribute to....so yeah, put up or shut up

I'm sorry you feel that way.

[Fandango 1,439]

I am now waiting to be asked how often I support Fair Trade personally in order for my comments to have any validity.

Yes, it seems to be the parroted rhetoric these days.

No, it's called 'putting your money where your mouth is' Nowt wrong with that....it's like you wanna sit here on your pedestal and condem pretty much everything that's wrong with the world, yet you have no answers, no plans, no action. So you're just a complainer!

I've personally asked you twice what your actions are....I don't recall an answer the first time, but the second is in this thread with no answer either.

And now...I'll put my money where MY mouth is.....when *I* was a Democrat (and yes, shockingly I was)...I became politically active. Among other things, I: protested, I involved people, I was the President of the College Democrats. I worked on campaigns which I believed in....I held office in FL State Young Democrats. I walked in the rain for petitions to be signed, I did God knows how many charity functions/auctions/etc.

I wrote Congress, I went to Washington. I helped change legislature...I didn't just sit on my azz waxing lyrical as to everything that's wrong with the world, yet say

'oh well I support fair trade...'

well BRAVO! the bleeding hearts are upset that everyone's starving, and their contribution is paying a few dollars more so it can go down the money pipeline and maybe somewhere someone gets an extra 15 cents yet you all get the feeling that you've 'contributed to the cause'

Don't break your arms patting yourselves on the back!

And while someone can retort 'oh you were younger, not many responsibilities'....I managed a chain of salons working over 40 hours a week while taking 15 credit hours a semester....let alone my personal life. And yes, to this day there are things that bother me that I get off my azz to go contribute to....so yeah, put up or shut up

I'm sorry you feel that way.

case and point! lolz!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I am now waiting to be asked how often I support Fair Trade personally in order for my comments to have any validity.

Yes, it seems to be the parroted rhetoric these days.

No, it's called 'putting your money where your mouth is' Nowt wrong with that....it's like you wanna sit here on your pedestal and condem pretty much everything that's wrong with the world, yet you have no answers, no plans, no action. So you're just a complainer!

I've personally asked you twice what your actions are....I don't recall an answer the first time, but the second is in this thread with no answer either.

And now...I'll put my money where MY mouth is.....when *I* was a Democrat (and yes, shockingly I was)...I became politically active. Among other things, I: protested, I involved people, I was the President of the College Democrats. I worked on campaigns which I believed in....I held office in FL State Young Democrats. I walked in the rain for petitions to be signed, I did God knows how many charity functions/auctions/etc.

I wrote Congress, I went to Washington. I helped change legislature...I didn't just sit on my azz waxing lyrical as to everything that's wrong with the world, yet say

'oh well I support fair trade...'

well BRAVO! the bleeding hearts are upset that everyone's starving, and their contribution is paying a few dollars more so it can go down the money pipeline and maybe somewhere someone gets an extra 15 cents yet you all get the feeling that you've 'contributed to the cause'

Don't break your arms patting yourselves on the back!

And while someone can retort 'oh you were younger, not many responsibilities'....I managed a chain of salons working over 40 hours a week while taking 15 credit hours a semester....let alone my personal life. And yes, to this day there are things that bother me that I get off my azz to go contribute to....so yeah, put up or shut up

I'm sorry you feel that way.

case and point! lolz!

It's always nice to engage in a meaningful discussion about the issues without it becoming personal.

[Fandango 1,439]

It's always nice to engage in a meaningful discussion about the issues without it becoming personal.

It'd also be better to have one with someone who's not a raging hypocrite who refuses to answer a relevant question

[Carol&Marc 0]

It's always nice to engage in a meaningful discussion about the issues without it becoming personal.

It'd also be better to have one with someone who's not a raging hypocrite who refuses to answer a relevant question

Lisa, when they dont have an answer, they just go into DEMONIZE mode so so funny

[one...two...tree 2,762]

It's always nice to engage in a meaningful discussion about the issues without it becoming personal.

It'd also be better to have one with someone who's not a raging hypocrite who refuses to answer a relevant question

Lisa, have you ever asked any of the people here who post in OT about the need for tighter border security if they have joined the Minutemen? I mean wouldn't that be 'putting their money where their mouth is' if that is your line of thinking?

Here, let me explain the political process to you in a nutshell. We have representational government that we vote into office. That government makes policies that affect us one way or another. We have a right to voice our opinions, discuss and and argue over those policies.

How my posts get under your skin is beyond me, but I'd hope that you would avoid turning these discussions into personal attacks. I don't mind the jabs in jest, but you honestly come across as mean spirited as if you get off on putting others down. Maybe you've got unresolved issues with your former political activism but I'm not here to be anyone's punching bag. If you want to discuss the issues, ask me questions about the issue, but don't bait me.

[Alex+R 0]

I am now waiting to be asked how often I support Fair Trade personally in order for my comments to have any validity.

Yes, it seems to be the parroted rhetoric these days.

No, it's called 'putting your money where your mouth is' Nowt wrong with that....it's like you wanna sit here on your pedestal and condem pretty much everything that's wrong with the world, yet you have no answers, no plans, no action. So you're just a complainer!

I've personally asked you twice what your actions are....I don't recall an answer the first time, but the second is in this thread with no answer either.

And now...I'll put my money where MY mouth is.....when *I* was a Democrat (and yes, shockingly I was)...I became politically active. Among other things, I: protested, I involved people, I was the President of the College Democrats. I worked on campaigns which I believed in....I held office in FL State Young Democrats. I walked in the rain for petitions to be signed, I did God knows how many charity functions/auctions/etc.

I wrote Congress, I went to Washington. I helped change legislature...I didn't just sit on my azz waxing lyrical as to everything that's wrong with the world, yet say

'oh well I support fair trade...'

Lisa, I've done every single one of those things too, except being President of the College Democrats (because I'm not a Democrat). Yet, amazingly enough, I happen to believe that institutional change is somehow more useful than me carrying around a sign or writing a letter. Go figure.

PS What happened to you?

[Fandango 1,439]

It's always nice to engage in a meaningful discussion about the issues without it becoming personal.

It'd also be better to have one with someone who's not a raging hypocrite who refuses to answer a relevant question

Lisa, have you ever asked any of the people here who post in OT about the need for tighter border security if they have joined the Minutemen? I mean wouldn't that be 'putting their money where their mouth is' if that is your line of thinking?

Here, let me explain the political process to you in a nutshell. We have representational government that we vote into office. That government makes policies that affect us one way or another. We have a right to voice our opinions, discuss and and argue over those policies.

How my posts get under your skin is beyond me, but I'd hope that you would avoid turning these discussions into personal attacks. I don't mind the jabs in jest, but you honestly come across as mean spirited as if you get off on putting others down. Maybe you've got unresolved issues with your former political activism but I'm not here to be anyone's punching bag. If you want to discuss the issues, ask me questions about the issue, but don't bait me.

Don't sit here and condescend to me Steven...I'm far too intelligent for your bullsh!t rhetoric.

Good thing Martin Luther King didn't have your attitude! 'I believe we have a representational government!' And tbh, if you really feel this way, then you should have no problem with Bush being in office....after all, it's a representational government & they'll take care of everything, eh?

I'm not saying you don't have a right to be a raging hypocrite......just as you shouldn't begrudge me my opinion. I'm not trying to sound mean spirited, Steven...but I can't help it if I feel all you do is whinge with no action behind it.

Lisa, I've done every single one of those things too, except being President of the College Democrats (because I'm not a Democrat). Yet, amazingly enough, I happen to believe that institutional change is somehow more useful than me carrying around a sign or writing a letter. Go figure.

PS What happened to you?

What's institutional change? And how do you propose it happens? And where's your part in it?

What happened to me? I grew up....and got real

Edited November 28, 2006 by LisaD

[one...two...tree 2,762]

It's always nice to engage in a meaningful discussion about the issues without it becoming personal.

It'd also be better to have one with someone who's not a raging hypocrite who refuses to answer a relevant question

Lisa, have you ever asked any of the people here who post in OT about the need for tighter border security if they have joined the Minutemen? I mean wouldn't that be 'putting their money where their mouth is' if that is your line of thinking?

Here, let me explain the political process to you in a nutshell. We have representational government that we vote into office. That government makes policies that affect us one way or another. We have a right to voice our opinions, discuss and and argue over those policies.

How my posts get under your skin is beyond me, but I'd hope that you would avoid turning these discussions into personal attacks. I don't mind the jabs in jest, but you honestly come across as mean spirited as if you get off on putting others down. Maybe you've got unresolved issues with your former political activism but I'm not here to be anyone's punching bag. If you want to discuss the issues, ask me questions about the issue, but don't bait me.

Don't sit here and condescend to me Steven...I'm far too intelligent for your bullsh!t rhetoric.

And who condescends who? Your tone is consistently condescending whether it's me or someone else here in OT - you've always got an opinion about someone else's opinion. If that's your style then go for it, but don't be too disappointed when people stop replying to your posts.

[Fandango 1,439]

And who condescends who? Your tone is consistently condescending whether it's me or someone else here in OT - you've always got an opinion about someone else's opinion. If that's your style then go for it, but don't be too disappointed when people stop replying to your posts.

Dunno, you tell me.....

Here, let me explain the political process to you in a nutshell.

Nah that's not condescending at all, lol

Steven, knit yourself a pair and stop talking in generalities like the bit in red. Stand on your own...if you want to ignore me, then go right ahead. But at least speak just for yourself...whatever other ppl do is not for you to be their spokesperson. If anyone wants to ignore me, he or she is free to do so and it's no sweat off my backside whatsoever.

So what were we talking about? Oh that's right! Putting yer money where your mouth is.

Edited November 28, 2006 by LisaD

[one...two...tree 2,762]

So what were we talking about? Oh that's right! Putting yer money where your mouth is.

Because I bring up the effects of NAFTA on illegal immigration and I have an opinion about it, I'm a hypocrite?

Just look back over the times you posted on a thread and see how often you'll take it as an opportunity to attack me personally by responding to my post rather than actually adding anything to the discussion. And I know I'm not the only one you target. You've got a mighty big chip on your shoulder to say the least. I like to post here in OT and I've enjoyed the comraderie with many people here, and even you and I have had lighter moments.

I don't like to ignore anyone but I don't respond to some of your direct posts to me because they are mean spirited and baiting, most often having nothing to do with the discussion. Again, you want to jab in jest, that's fine, but let's keep the personal attacks out of this.