'NY Times' publishes defense of racial segregation in Israel

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Nobody cares, except to blame the other side, about who did what first. At this point in time it takes both sides to take genuine steps to solve the problems and move towards a workable peaceful coexistence.

It's all Israels fault. No, it's all the Palestinians fault. Getting both sides nowhere.

Speak for yourself. A lot of people care.

The legal framework to end the conflict has been there for decades - it's called UN Security Council Resolution 242. Israel ignores it, along with just about all of its obligations under international law, and continues to occupy, colonize and appropriate the West Bank.

Doesn't matter what the Palestinians do or don't do. It's all about what Israel wants - which is maximum territory and maximum resources with a minimum number of indigenous inhabitants who happen to be non-Jewish. This is what keeps the conflict going. And the more violence Israel uses to achieve its aims, the more violence it receives in response.

But with its 4th most powerful army in the world, its stockpile of nuclear weapons, all the economic empowerment and diplomatic cover it receives from its bought-and-paid-for US Congress, and its de-facto possession of all of Palestine, Israel will continue to claim it is the victim even as it continues to victimize, oppress and dispossess the unwanted "other."

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

Israel is 80% secular. Religion has little to do with this. This is about Zionism, and the perceived need for an exclusively Jewish homeland. Judaism and Islam have very little to do with it, except for the more extreme elements on both sides, that justify their actions as some sort of religious calling.

Its the religious extremists on both sides that make compromise impossible... I have no doubt it has gone beyond religion for many at this point to a "them" and "us". It certainly is orders and orders of magnitude closer to religion that it is to race...

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Its the religious extremists on both sides that make compromise impossible... I have no doubt it has gone beyond religion for many at this point to a "them" and "us". It certainly is orders and orders of magnitude closer to religion that it is to race...

It's not a religious conflict. Some of the combatants are religious, but many aren't. It's a battle over real estate, and civil rights.

[Karee 4,191]

Not sure why we call this racism.. Its all based on Religion.. Israel has put effort into bringing in Russian and African Jews in the past so race does not seem to play into it.. How about we call it religious Intolerance or religious persecution...

And I'm thinking at least some of this this is learned behavior from existing with its neighbors for some time.. Maybe I am wrong help me out here, If I were an Israeli Jew what Middle Eastern country would I travel to to experience some religious tolerance? Egypt? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Syria? Yemen? Would a change in Israeli thinking solve the problem? I don't think so..

In this particular case both sides raise their kids to hate.. Why the shock? The children are acting exactly as they have been taught.

I don't see it as based on religion at all. Of course that's what the Israeli govt. wants people to think. "Muslims bad, Jews close to Christianity, therefore good"

It's sort of "moving the goalposts" to bring Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria into the conversation. That actually plays right into the Israeli govt.s talking points. "Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Syria are bad, therefore Palestinians are bad."

It is a sort of "convenient racism" if you will. People fail to realize that a large percentage of Palestinians practice a religion other than Islam. Of course you don't hear too much about this because it clouds the message put forth by the Israeli govt. and it's PACs in the U.S. Kinda hard to label the Palestinians a bunch of radical suicide bombers, when the reality is Islam is just one of many religions practiced by the Palestinians.

My personal belief is that all religions are pretty much useless. This situation is a perfect example of why I feel that way. One group of people is oppressing another group of people, and hiding behind religion to do it. The simple reality is they just want more land and have no problem using religion to kick the existing inhabitants off of it.

[sandinista! 1,816]

so it's bad to think Palestinians are all suicide bombing fans on the basis that not all of them are Muslim? Is the inverse of that if they were all Muslim that'd be a totally legit pov?

And religion is bad because it's used by some here to steal people's land and justify it, but when the largely secular movements of Zionism and Palestinian resistance were the dominant figures in play early on, well of course the secular angle had ** all to do with the dynamics and nature and problems of the conflict itself?

Ax grinding.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Well, I think Karee was referring to the way that Israel's hasbarists try to portray the conflict as if it's Muslims vs. Jews - and as if all Palestinians are not only Muslim, but evil Jew-hating Muslims, trying to perpetrate a second Holocaust against The Jews, collectively. That's why Israel helped fund Hamas in its early days - because Fatah was secular, and Israel hoped Hamas would not only help divide the Palestinians, but help its hasbarists re-frame the conflict as if it were some kind of religious war, rather than a fight over stolen land, oppression and colonization.

But we should point out that not all suicide bombers were Muslims.... some were Christian... some were atheist/non-religious.

[Karee 4,191]

so it's bad to think Palestinians are all suicide bombing fans on the basis that not all of them are Muslim? Is the inverse of that if they were all Muslim that'd be a totally legit pov?

And religion is bad because it's used by some here to steal people's land and justify it, but when the largely secular movements of Zionism and Palestinian resistance were the dominant figures in play early on, well of course the secular angle had ** all to do with the dynamics and nature and problems of the conflict itself?

Ax grinding.

I see a thread lock coming.

[GandD 5,966]

Well, it's a lot easier to convince someone to do a suicide bombing if they believe they'll be rewarded in an afterlife. I'd say its a safe bet that most suicude bombers are some variation of religious. Based on populations statistics in this area, most are going to be Muslim.

[sandinista! 1,816]

I was asking for clarification on his thought process is all. I like Karee, and though I don't agree with every word he types, I largely appreciate and agree with his contributions on the topic.

[Darnell 8,479]

repost of a blog into an op-ed piece on a newspaper? A Blogger's Nirvana, each and every time it happens !

[sandinista! 1,816]

Actually, no.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-logic-of-suicide-terrorism/

Well, it's a lot easier to convince someone to do a suicide bombing if they believe they'll be rewarded in an afterlife. I'd say its a safe bet that most suicude bombers are some variation of religious. Based on populations statistics in this area, most are going to be Muslim.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Actually, no.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-logic-of-suicide-terrorism/

Robert Pape, from your link:

The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide-terrorist campaign—over 95 percent of all the incidents—has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw.

...

Since suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation and not Islamic fundamentalism, the use of heavy military force to transform Muslim societies over there, if you would, is only likely to increase the number of suicide terrorists coming at us.

Since 1990, the United States has stationed tens of thousands of ground troops on the Arabian Peninsula, and that is the main mobilization appeal of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda. People who make the argument that it is a good thing to have them attacking us over there are missing that suicide terrorism is not a supply-limited phenomenon where there are just a few hundred around the world willing to do it because they are religious fanatics. It is a demand-driven phenomenon. That is, it is driven by the presence of foreign forces on the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. The operation in Iraq has stimulated suicide terrorism and has given suicide terrorism a new lease on life.

...

I have the first complete set of data on every al-Qaeda suicide terrorist from 1995 to early 2004, and they are not from some of the largest Islamic fundamentalist countries in the world. Two thirds are from the countries where the United States has stationed heavy combat troops since 1990.

...

Many people worry that once a large number of suicide terrorists have acted that it is impossible to wind it down. The history of the last 20 years, however, shows the opposite. Once the occupying forces withdraw from the homeland territory of the terrorists, they often stop—and often on a dime.

...

in Lebanon in the 1980s, of those suicide attackers, only eight were Islamic fundamentalists. Twenty-seven were Communists and Socialists. Three were Christians.

[GandD 5,966]

Actually, no.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-logic-of-suicide-terrorism/

Sorry, my point is that religion makes suicide attacks more of an option. Not that religion causes suicide bombers. As pointed out above, Christians also are quite capable of carrying out suicide bombings. I'm saying the vast majority of people who will end their life in the name of whatever cause are going to be comforted (somewhat) by the notion of an afterlife.

Palenstinian suicide bombings are (by the numbers) mostly going to be carried out by Muslims. In Lebanon, some were Christians. Doesn't matter what religion to me, they're all being tricked in my mind. Are we assuming socialists and communists cannot be religious? Fight if you must, but don't throw your life away because its all you have.

Edited June 16, 2013 by GandD

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Sometimes a suicide bomber/martyr is simply being altruistic. In much of the world, family needs supersede individual needs. So family obligations may force a young girl into prostitution, or marriage to a much older man, in one part of the world, while also inspiring a young man in another part of the world to strap on an explosive vest, knowing that if he dies a martyr's death his family will be well taken care of by the rest of the community.

One of the most ruthless and effective ways to deal with the threat of such asymmetric tactics, is to punish the whole family for the actions of an individual, thereby removing the incentive to seek martyrdom.

[Karee 4,191]

One of the most ruthless and effective ways to deal with the threat of such asymmetric tactics, is to punish the whole family for the actions of an individual, thereby removing the incentive to seek martyrdom.

Like bulldozing the family house after the suicide attack.