Hands off our fingers!

[mawilson 2,133]

by Henry Porter

The news that police are demanding the right to fingerprint people by the roadside

and to arrest them if they refuse - whereupon fingerprints, DNA and a photograph

will all be taken - is perhaps a footnote in the account of the slide of rights in Britain.

However it does underline that we have all become suspects; that the onus is

increasingly on us to prove our innocence to an overbearing, officious and

meddlesome state.

It must be clear that if the police are demanding fingerprints today, they will be

asking for our papers (ID cards) tomorrow, a notion that would have been unthinkable

in Britain 10 years ago. Yet now we seem to accept that the authorities have these

new rights over us and that we must simply roll over and go along with this oppressive

behaviour.

Every part of me recoils from these developments. I go on complaining and making

the case that a profound change is underway which is not a matter of debate, but of

actuality. We are living this revolution. Our apathy and complacency enables it. One

day our children and grandchildren will look back and wonder what on earth was

going through our minds; how we lost our faith in liberty, which when it comes down

to it will be the story of how we lost our self respect as citizens.

Unless many more understand what is going on with the nightmarish clarity that afflicts

some of us, and they start campaigning and doing everything they possibly can to

reassert individual rights, the fight will eventually be lost. I never tire of quoting

Jay Stanley of the American Civil Liberties Union: "There is a lot of room for the

Unites States to become a meaner, less open and less just place without any radical

change in government." That is true of Britain too and it will happen if we don't do

something.

My chief worry is that the media's record is so poor on this issue. The newspapers

for the main stayed away from the subject of civil liberties. There have even been

contributions from a couple of columnists - in the Times and Guardian - who have

briskly exclaimed they do not understand what the fuss is about. These are people

who do not think of themselves as journalists but as quasi non-governmental policy

makers. They affect responsibility by flattering authority and they do not represent

our interests.

Surely the matter of police fingerprinting anyone they wish on the roadside should

enrage us. But out there you can hear a pin drop.

Source

[mmb 0]

If the police in the UK want to check a drivers fingerprints they can always arrest the person and let them spend around 3 hours in the station instead. I for one would prefer the roadside check which only takes about 2 minutes.

[mawilson 2,133]

If the police in the UK want to check a drivers fingerprints they can always arrest the person and let them spend around 3 hours in the station instead. I for one would prefer the roadside check which only takes about 2 minutes.

How can they "always" arrest a person? It's still the UK, not Stalin's Russia.

Don't you think they'd need something called probable cause?

[Mags 112]

I heard on the BBC news this evening that they can only take your fingerprints if you agree. If you don't they just send you on your merry way. Or not so merry way if you've just got 3 points on your license...

[YuAndDan 153]

Along the same lines:

This is in Scotland.

First guns, next knives. Any time a oppressive state attempts to control peoples lives it just makes it worse for every one, take peoples' rights away a little bit at a time seems to be the thing that liberal governments tend to do. Take away a person's ability to defend them self, and criminals have less deterrent to not commit crimes against their fellow citizen. Show me a gun or knife law that a criminal is going to obey.

Knife carriers to be sent straight to jail

EDDIE BARNES POLITICAL EDITOR (ebarnes@scotlandonsunday.com)

ANYONE caught in possession of a knife will face a 'presumption of jail' under a tough new law being considered by Labour to tackle Scotland's blade culture.

Party chiefs are expected to include the measure in their election manifesto next year, if their current crackdown on knife crime fails to deliver.

Click to learn more...

The move, put forward by MSP and former Glasgow City Council leader Charlie Gordon, would bring possession of a knife into the same category as carrying a gun.

Anyone found with a knife would be handed a custodial sentence, unless they could offer a credible explanation.

The move comes with figures showing that nearly 30 Scots a week need hospital treatment for knife wounds.

In 2004-5, more than 1,400 people were discharged from hospital after being treated for a blade-related injury.

Gordon has submitted the plan as part of Labour's manifesto preparations, which will be finalised later this year. Labour ministers in charge of knife crime legislation have now given a pledge that if their efforts to crack down on knife crime fail, then they will turn to the plan once again.

The move would give Scotland some of the most draconian legislation in the world on the possession of knives. However, MSPs insist that such is the extent of the crisis, they need to show they are serious.

Gordon said: "If you go back to the razor gangs of the 1950s, judges started handing out lengthy sentences and that helped to bring them to a halt. I think it might well take jailing people for knife possession for us to reverse this cultural problem."

He added: "This is something that affects everyone. I know of middle-class children in nice schools who are keeping knives for protection, they say. They don't realise that they are making themselves more vulnerable to attack.

"If you carry a gun, unless you can convince a judge that there is a very good reason, then the judge has to give you five years. I am aiming at people who think it is OK to carry a knife. If you carry a knife, then you will be locked up."

Ministers have already prioritised tackling knife crime, after putting forward the new Police, Public Order and Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act, which came into force across Scotland last week. The act has doubled the maximum penalty for carrying a knife in public from two to four years.

The minimum age for buying a knife has also risen, from 16 to 18. The police have also been given greater powers to stop and search those who they suspect of carrying a blade. New laws have also been introduced placing strict new licences on businesses that sell swords and other non-domestic knives.

A knife amnesty this summer resulted in nearly 13,000 weapons being handed in to police, including lock knives, machetes, swords, meat cleavers, bayonets and axes.

Labour will wait until the impact of those reforms has been assessed, but party chiefs have given a commitment to toughen it further if knife crime continues to grow.

First Minister Jack McConnell is understood to back extra measures for the Labour manifesto next year, as Labour attempts to show the electorate it is serious about reducing violent crime on Scotland's streets.

Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish National Party justice spokesman, said: "We would have some sympathy for this. We wouldn't support any mandatory system, but given the situation we are in, the time has come to show no mercy. People have been warned and there should be no good reason why people carry knives at all."

Margaret Mitchell, justice spokeswoman for the Scottish Conservatives, added:"While this all helps, legislation alone isn't going to begin to tackle the problem. Until you get into the minds of young people and show them the stupidity of carrying a knife and how dangerous it is, you are never going to move forward."

There are about 10,000 knife offences in Scotland every year with, on average, one person a week stabbed to death. Between April and December last year, some 879 people were treated for knife wounds in casualty departments.

According to the United Nations, the figures make Scotland one of the most dangerous 'civilised' nations in the world.

At present, people caught with a knife face being taken into custody until their court date, but there is no presumption that they will then be jailed after sentencing.

Gordon says that space should be freed up in jails by barring petty offenders, such as fine defaulters, from receiving a jail sentence.

The extent of Scotland's knife culture was revealed last month when two 12-year-old boys were caught with knives while travelling on buses into Glasgow city centre on a Saturday night.

In the High Court in Edinburgh last month, a teenager and his two friends were given a total of 19 years in jail after attacking guests at a party with a meat cleaver and a martial arts weapon. The attack was apparently provoked after the teenager's girlfriend left him for another man.

http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=1337012006

[KaiserD 12]

Our apathy and complacency enables it

That it does.

Do what the nice policeman tells you to, because we just want a quiet easy life where we can go back home, sit on our arses in front of the box and not have to think about anything. I mean, the guy/girls a policeman! They must be right!

[mmb 0]

If the police in the UK want to check a drivers fingerprints they can always arrest the person and let them spend around 3 hours in the station instead. I for one would prefer the roadside check which only takes about 2 minutes.

How can they "always" arrest a person? It's still the UK, not Stalin's Russia.

Don't you think they'd need something called probable cause?

Of course they would have probable cause, and if you don't want to cooperate at the roadside you can cooperate at the station.

The system is to check identities of drivers pulled over because they have committed an offence or police already have probable cause. Drivers who don't sign the consent form won't be fingerprinted this way, they can be taken to the station just like the old days.

Nothing new here, carrying weapons is illegal end of story, now they just go to jail faster, I have no problem with that, anyone carrying a weapon is a criminal.

Along the same lines:

This is in Scotland.

First guns, next knives. Any time a oppressive state attempts to control peoples lives it just makes it worse for every one, take peoples' rights away a little bit at a time seems to be the thing that liberal governments tend to do. Take away a person's ability to defend them self, and criminals have less deterrent to not commit crimes against their fellow citizen. Show me a gun or knife law that a criminal is going to obey.

Knife carriers to be sent straight to jail

EDDIE BARNES POLITICAL EDITOR (ebarnes@scotlandonsunday.com)

ANYONE caught in possession of a knife will face a 'presumption of jail' under a tough new law being considered by Labour to tackle Scotland's blade culture.

Party chiefs are expected to include the measure in their election manifesto next year, if their current crackdown on knife crime fails to deliver.

Click to learn more...

The move, put forward by MSP and former Glasgow City Council leader Charlie Gordon, would bring possession of a knife into the same category as carrying a gun.

Anyone found with a knife would be handed a custodial sentence, unless they could offer a credible explanation.

The move comes with figures showing that nearly 30 Scots a week need hospital treatment for knife wounds.

In 2004-5, more than 1,400 people were discharged from hospital after being treated for a blade-related injury.

Gordon has submitted the plan as part of Labour's manifesto preparations, which will be finalised later this year. Labour ministers in charge of knife crime legislation have now given a pledge that if their efforts to crack down on knife crime fail, then they will turn to the plan once again.

The move would give Scotland some of the most draconian legislation in the world on the possession of knives. However, MSPs insist that such is the extent of the crisis, they need to show they are serious.

Gordon said: "If you go back to the razor gangs of the 1950s, judges started handing out lengthy sentences and that helped to bring them to a halt. I think it might well take jailing people for knife possession for us to reverse this cultural problem."

He added: "This is something that affects everyone. I know of middle-class children in nice schools who are keeping knives for protection, they say. They don't realise that they are making themselves more vulnerable to attack.

"If you carry a gun, unless you can convince a judge that there is a very good reason, then the judge has to give you five years. I am aiming at people who think it is OK to carry a knife. If you carry a knife, then you will be locked up."

Ministers have already prioritised tackling knife crime, after putting forward the new Police, Public Order and Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act, which came into force across Scotland last week. The act has doubled the maximum penalty for carrying a knife in public from two to four years.

The minimum age for buying a knife has also risen, from 16 to 18. The police have also been given greater powers to stop and search those who they suspect of carrying a blade. New laws have also been introduced placing strict new licences on businesses that sell swords and other non-domestic knives.

A knife amnesty this summer resulted in nearly 13,000 weapons being handed in to police, including lock knives, machetes, swords, meat cleavers, bayonets and axes.

Labour will wait until the impact of those reforms has been assessed, but party chiefs have given a commitment to toughen it further if knife crime continues to grow.

First Minister Jack McConnell is understood to back extra measures for the Labour manifesto next year, as Labour attempts to show the electorate it is serious about reducing violent crime on Scotland's streets.

Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish National Party justice spokesman, said: "We would have some sympathy for this. We wouldn't support any mandatory system, but given the situation we are in, the time has come to show no mercy. People have been warned and there should be no good reason why people carry knives at all."

Margaret Mitchell, justice spokeswoman for the Scottish Conservatives, added:"While this all helps, legislation alone isn't going to begin to tackle the problem. Until you get into the minds of young people and show them the stupidity of carrying a knife and how dangerous it is, you are never going to move forward."

There are about 10,000 knife offences in Scotland every year with, on average, one person a week stabbed to death. Between April and December last year, some 879 people were treated for knife wounds in casualty departments.

According to the United Nations, the figures make Scotland one of the most dangerous 'civilised' nations in the world.

At present, people caught with a knife face being taken into custody until their court date, but there is no presumption that they will then be jailed after sentencing.

Gordon says that space should be freed up in jails by barring petty offenders, such as fine defaulters, from receiving a jail sentence.

The extent of Scotland's knife culture was revealed last month when two 12-year-old boys were caught with knives while travelling on buses into Glasgow city centre on a Saturday night.

In the High Court in Edinburgh last month, a teenager and his two friends were given a total of 19 years in jail after attacking guests at a party with a meat cleaver and a martial arts weapon. The attack was apparently provoked after the teenager's girlfriend left him for another man.

http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=1337012006

[Dean iWait 0]

If the police in the UK want to check a drivers fingerprints they can always arrest the person and let them spend around 3 hours in the station instead. I for one would prefer the roadside check which only takes about 2 minutes.

How can they "always" arrest a person? It's still the UK, not Stalin's Russia.

Don't you think they'd need something called probable cause?

No, in the US they need probable cause. In the UK they only need what's called reasonable suspicion to arrest you.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

just like Gattaca