State pushes to keep Trayvon Martin's past out of George Zimmerman trial

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Do you know what he said to James? Did he threaten James while he showed him the gun? Did he say that he'll get his other gun to come back and take care of James? You know none of that. What we do know is that Dooley had no injuries that supported his fantastic account of James choking him. None of the witnesses supported that either. If you believe that Dooley was justified to kill James, then you must also believe that there is a possibility that Zimmerman was justified in killing Martin. Otherwise, your prejudice has gotten the best of you.

DId you read what I said to you earlier? Or are you just trying to say I am for Dooley because he is black? We know that James put his hands on Dooley and tried to take his gun from him. I said that both men had a lapse in judgement. I know that Dooley didn't call the police on the boys are James, he went out and tried to talk to them himself, something Zimmerman didn't do. But do you know what James said to him? Maybe he insulted him as well, that you don't know. All we know is that there was an altercation, if you are going to assume Dooley was the aggressor, why can't James be as well?

I hold both men accountable why? Because Dooley should have asked before he went over to correct the boys, and James should have made his position clear about his permission to let the boys skate without resorting to arguing. Why would Dooley go get another gun when he had one on him? He could have shot him right there, yet he was walking away when James put his hands on him. It's not about the color of his skin, if they were both white or black my stance would still be the same.

You chide me for thinking one way when you clearly have your mind made up that Dooley killed him in cold blood, but Dooley was walking away, that has been confirmed by a few people. No matter what he said, he was leaving. If he was going to get another gun, there was plenty of time to escape, call the cops and let them handle the business.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Yeah, TM ran, and GZ chased him. Apparently he cut between houses and ran in the general direction of his home and GZ maybe, or maybe not, lost him. And then one of them found the other. Perhaps TM had hid and that's why GZ lost him, then when he started back he went by TM again. Maybe TM didn't want him to know where he lived, so he didn't run all the way home. There are so many possible explanations, how does this make a difference.

It pokes a hole in his walking back to his car and being snuck by TM. That's my point. If I had to look at it without the GF phone call, I would guess that TM might have thought he lost him and was going back when he ran into him. Because if you look at the map and listen to the tape, it's obvious GZ is hunting this kid, he is pressed to find him. He could have waited for a minute and let TM walk back thinking he was safe. Because here is the thing, if you are chasing someone and you lose him, would you turn your back and walk back like nothing happened? Here's the other thing: GZ says that TM walked up behind him, and asked him if he had a problem before he hit him in the face. If TM was being stalked by GZ, why would he give GZ the warning before he hit him? He tells this as if he was minding his business and TM just walked up, asked him if he had a problem and then hit him. When TM confronted him(his version) he didn't at no time identify himself nor explain what he was doing following him, he just said no. Not hey Im the neighborhood watch and since I never seen you before, just want to keep the area safe. He just said no and closed his phone.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

DId you read what I said to you earlier? Or are you just trying to say I am for Dooley because he is black? We know that James put his hands on Dooley and tried to take his gun from him. I said that both men had a lapse in judgement. I know that Dooley didn't call the police on the boys are James, he went out and tried to talk to them himself, something Zimmerman didn't do. But do you know what James said to him? Maybe he insulted him as well, that you don't know. All we know is that there was an altercation, if you are going to assume Dooley was the aggressor, why can't James be as well?

I hold both men accountable why? Because Dooley should have asked before he went over to correct the boys, and James should have made his position clear about his permission to let the boys skate without resorting to arguing. Why would Dooley go get another gun when he had one on him? He could have shot him right there, yet he was walking away when James put his hands on him. It's not about the color of his skin, if they were both white or black my stance would still be the same.

You chide me for thinking one way when you clearly have your mind made up that Dooley killed him in cold blood, but Dooley was walking away, that has been confirmed by a few people. No matter what he said, he was leaving. If he was going to get another gun, there was plenty of time to escape, call the cops and let them handle the business.

I'm sorry but both the judge that denied Dooley Stand you Ground relief for the killing of James and the jury that found him guilty of manslaughter seem to see through the smoke and mirrors that you can't seem to get past. Dooley's life was not in danger. At no point. Dooley had no justification to kill James. None. That is why is now a felon - a convicted killer. I have followed this case very closely as it played out - it happened in my neck of the woods. I go jogging on distances longer than the distance between the crime scene and my house. James simply asked Dooley to leave the kids alone and pointed out that there was no signage at the facility indicating that the kids could not skateboard on the court. There are witnesses to that - namely the skateboarding youths. James did NOT threaten Dooley. Dooley threatened James by illegally brandishing his firearm. None of this is speculation. It's is known and undisputed and supported by evidence.

What you fail to acknowledge is that just like in the Zimmerman/Martin crime, the killer was the one seeking confrontation where none was necessary while carrying a firearm where none was warranted. That is what ultimately led to the deaths of James and Martin. You cannot sit there and justify Dooley's unjustifiable and criminal actions while excluding any possibility that Zimmerman's action may have been justified. That's an impossible position to take and explain.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

I'm sorry but both the judge that denied Dooley Stand you Ground relief for the killing of James and the jury that found him guilty of manslaughter seem to see through the smoke and mirrors that you can't seem to get past. Dooley's life was not in danger. At no point. Dooley had no justification to kill James. None. That is why is now a felon - a convicted killer. I have followed this case very closely as it played out - it happened in my neck of the woods. I go jogging on distances longer than the distance between the crime scene and my house. James simply asked Dooley to leave the kids alone and pointed out that there was no signage at the facility indicating that the kids could not skateboard on the court. There are witnesses to that - namely the skateboarding youths. James did NOT threaten Dooley. Dooley threatened James by illegally brandishing his firearm. None of this is speculation. It's is known and undisputed and supported by evidence.

What you fail to acknowledge is that just like in the Zimmerman/Martin crime, the killer was the one seeking confrontation where none was necessary while carrying a firearm where none was warranted. That is what ultimately led to the deaths of James and Martin. You cannot sit there and justify Dooley's unjustifiable and criminal actions while excluding any possibility that Zimmerman's action may have been justified. That's an impossible position to take and explain.

So are you saying that the judge and jury are always right? I am not playing the race card because I think that Dooley should have removed himself from the situation without showing his weapon, unless James made advances towards him. The difference is that Zimmerman said he felt threatened, yet chose to pursue Martin. Dooley went to confront the teenagers, not James. I am also clear headed enough to say both men were wrong, James had no right to put his hands on Dooley, just like Dooley had no right to flash a gun with kids around.

They testified that Dooley briefly went into his garage, then started across the street with a dark object sticking out of his waistband. They said James threw his hands up and said, "Oh, come on."

Dooley and James argued over letting the boy skate until Dooley lifted his shirt and said, "F--- you," the Whitts testified.

They said Dooley turned and started home, but James caught up with him. "Mr. James said, 'Don't flash a weapon,' something like that," Michelle Whitt testified.

Then, she said, Dooley pulled out the gun and James grabbed his hand. The men struggled, they fell to the ground, and James ended up on his knees as Dooley lay on his side. They still wrestled for the gun.

At the point when Dooley said F you and left, James could have called the cops since he brandished the gun. But he chose to engage him. No one knows if Martin engaged Zimmerman or not.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

So are you saying that the judge and jury are always right?

No but when you have a judge and a jury independently, in two different proceedings come to the same conclusion then the odds are that they got it right.

At the point when Dooley said F you and left, James could have called the cops since he brandished the gun. But he chose to engage him. No one knows if Martin engaged Zimmerman or not.

So there's a chance that Martin engaged Zimmerman and if he did then Zimmerman would have been justified to kill Martin? Martin could have just continued to run home. Surely he could have outrun Zimmerman. The fact that Zimmerman and Martin had an encounter would indicate rather strongly that Martin did in fact engage Zimmerman.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Mr. Big Dog

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

No but when you have a judge and a jury independently, in two different proceedings come to the same conclusion then the odds are that they got it right.

So there's a chance that Martin engaged Zimmerman and if he did then Zimmerman would have been justified to kill Martin? Martin could have just continued to run home. Surely he could have outrun Zimmerman. The fact that Zimmerman and Martin had an encounter would indicate rather strongly that Martin did in fact engage Zimmerman.

I would love to keep this debate going, but the missus has pulled rank and said I've had enough crusading for the night.

I did say that it is possible that TM did engage GZ if he felt threatened.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I would love to keep this debate going, but the missus has pulled rank and said I've had enough crusading for the night.

I did say that it is possible that TM did engage GZ if he felt threatened.

So it's possible that Zimmerman was justified in killing Martin?

[ready4ONE 5,400]

So it's possible that Zimmerman was justified in killing Martin?

How does Martin going after Zimmerman justify the killing? Z knew that he had a gun and failed to mention that he was a neighborhood watch officer just trying to make sure M wasn't trying to rob a house.

Z did everything he could to cause a confrontation.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

How does Martin going after Zimmerman justify the killing?

I don't know. Marvin keeps saying that because Mr. James did not retreat, Mr. Dooley was justified killing him. If that's one's argument (it isn't mine, I believe that Mr. Dooley had no justification whatsoever to kill Mr. James just as I don;t see any justification for Mr. Zimmerman to kill Mr. Martin) then one must also admit that Mr. Zimmerman was justified in killing Mr. Martin. Marvin wants to have it both ways, however, and I am trying to find out why.

Z did everything he could to cause a confrontation.

As did Mr. Dooley which is precisely my point.

[Teddy B 17,252]

What you fail to acknowledge is that just like in the Zimmerman/Martin crime, the killer was the one seeking confrontation where none was necessary while carrying a firearm where none was warranted. That is what ultimately led to the deaths of James and Martin. You cannot sit there and justify Dooley's unjustifiable and criminal actions while excluding any possibility that Zimmerman's action may have been justified. That's an impossible position to take and explain.

Spot on!

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

So it's possible that Zimmerman was justified in killing Martin?

You're comparing apples to oranges in my opinion by using Mr. Dooley as an example:

Dooley went to confront some kids about skateboarding, it had nothing to do with James, Zimmerman made it about Martin from the start. I'll say that taking a gun to a playground in the daytime wasn't smart or safe. But his decision was about the no skateboarding rules in his neighborhood. If he would have asked before assuming, maybe this would have turned out differently. But Martin didn't get a single choice in this matter, Zimmerman never tried to talk to him before he put him in a hostile environment. Dooley didn't call 911 because he went and tried to handle it at the lowest level, Zimmerman called 911 because he couldn't be bothered to approach a 17 year old kid UNTIL he started chasing him.

Let me be clear because I know where this is coming from. I know in your perspective this guy murdered James, and from an angle I can see it that way as well. If Dooley was white and James was black, it would be no different in my eyes based on what I have read. I try to look at all the evidence and make an logical decision, because like I said before it wasn't until certain facts came out about the confrontation that folks even took notice about Martin.

[SMR 368]

18 inches was the distance from the end of the barrel to the entrance wound in the center of Martin's chest. You play with that and see how you can come up with a shot that hits Martin perpendicular to his body plane center mass 18 inches or more away from the end of the gun. I believe the spread was up to 40 inches away from the muzzle.

TM is on top of GZ in a full mount. GZ pulls the gun. TM sees it and grabs GZ's wrist to push the gun away. GZ twists his wrist and fires the gun. Again, that's only one version and it doesn't prove anything other than the evidence presented isn't conclusive.

[B_J 2,752]

You're comparing apples to oranges in my opinion by using Mr. Dooley as an example:

Dooley went to confront some kids about skateboarding, it had nothing to do with James, Zimmerman made it about Martin from the start. I'll say that taking a gun to a playground in the daytime wasn't smart or safe. But his decision was about the no skateboarding rules in his neighborhood. If he would have asked before assuming, maybe this would have turned out differently. But Martin didn't get a single choice in this matter, Zimmerman never tried to talk to him before he put him in a hostile environment. Dooley didn't call 911 because he went and tried to handle it at the lowest level, Zimmerman called 911 because he couldn't be bothered to approach a 17 year old kid UNTIL he started chasing him.

Let me be clear because I know where this is coming from. I know in your perspective this guy murdered James, and from an angle I can see it that way as well. If Dooley was white and James was black, it would be no different in my eyes based on what I have read. I try to look at all the evidence and make an logical decision, because like I said before it wasn't until certain facts came out about the confrontation that folks even took notice about Martin.

Zimmerman witness somebody at a building that had been broken into previously, just standing there looking in the windows. Dooley witnessed somebody skateboarding. I favor Z on this one.

I have a friend who taught concealed carry and he says, when given the chance, the first weapon used should be the phone to call the police. Zimmerman did that, and yet now you're criticizing him for it? And you approve of Dooley strapping on his gun to confront a skateboarder? I favor Z on this one too.

Zimmerman was watching out for his neighborhood. Do you honestly want neighborhood watch to grab their guns and confront everybody they see doing anything suspicious like they're Batman? Of course not. If they see something, call the police and report it. That is what Zimmerman did. Give him credit for that. He definitely botched it up afterwards, but he was okay up to that point.

Dooley flashed his gun and cursed at the other person. Talk about creating a hostile environment. Zimmerman chased Trayvon after he ran away. Both lose points on this one.

But I'd have say, if you're going to have sympathy for either of them, I'd say Zimmerman (not that I'm saying he deserves sympathy). His face was pounded on, he was trying to watch out for the neighborhood (although he probably didn't have the temperament for it), he called the cops instead of immediately getting involved. Dooley killed a guy in front of his child. And that's who you feel bad for?

I would think you would have the same reaction for the Dooley situation that you do for the Zimmerman situation.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Zimmerman witness somebody at a building that had been broken into previously, just standing there looking in the windows. Dooley witnessed somebody skateboarding. I favor Z on this one.

Actually, Martin was just walking home looking around, he wasn't peering into houses. Dooley should have left the gun at home, Ill give you that one.

I have a friend who taught concealed carry and he says, when given the chance, the first weapon used should be the phone to call the police. Zimmerman did that, and yet now you're criticizing him for it? And you approve of Dooley strapping on his gun to confront a skateboarder? I favor Z on this one too.

Call the police for what? Martin was doing nothing wrong. Should Dooley have called the police on the kids skateboarding since there was an actual rule about it in the neighborhood?

Zimmerman was watching out for his neighborhood. Do you honestly want neighborhood watch to grab their guns and confront everybody they see doing anything suspicious like they're Batman? Of course not. If they see something, call the police and report it. That is what Zimmerman did. Give him credit for that. He definitely botched it up afterwards, but he was okay up to that point.

He wasn't ok. Because no law was broken, there wasn't even a reason to call the cops, he was walking home. Do you call the cops if you see someone you don't know walking home?

Dooley flashed his gun and cursed at the other person. Talk about creating a hostile environment. Zimmerman chased Trayvon after he ran away. Both lose points on this one.

I agree.

But I'd have say, if you're going to have sympathy for either of them, I'd say Zimmerman (not that I'm saying he deserves sympathy). His face was pounded on, he was trying to watch out for the neighborhood (although he probably didn't have the temperament for it), he called the cops instead of immediately getting involved. Dooley killed a guy in front of his child. And that's who you feel bad for?

He profiled a child because he was black, and the recent break ins were from black males. That kid wasn't doing anything wrong, except walking from the store. He called the cops, and instead of letting them do their job, he couldn't wait. What threat was Martin to the neighborhood? What was so important that he had to chase Martin? What was he getting away from?

I would think you would have the same reaction for the Dooley situation that you do for the Zimmerman situation.

But after I slept on this I have to redact my previous statement. I think Dooley did act foolishly with the gun, and flashing it while cursing someone was a hostile attempt. I had to read another article to see he basically challenged James. If I was in either situation I wouldn't have acted so stupid. Dooley does deserve to go to jail.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

You're comparing apples to oranges in my opinion by using Mr. Dooley as an example.

No, I am not. These cause of the death of the victims is one and the same - someone took a gun and went looking for a confrontation. Both killed their victims at least recklessly without ever having had any justification for doing so. None of the assailants had their lives threatened. We do know that Mr. Dooley openly threatened Mr. James with a firearm. We do not know whether Mr. Zimmerman did the same to Mr. Martin. Either way, as a result of the actions of the assailants, two people are dead and shouldn't be. Neither of the assailants could or even would claim justification under Florida's "Stand Your Ground" statute which has even gotten drug dealers off the hook for killing others in deals gone bad. Thus one is now rightly convicted of manslaughter and the other faces the very real possibility of being convicted of the same before long. The fact that these cases are so similar and the fact that Mr. Dooley was convicted is what makes me fairly confident that the same fate will be visited upon Mr. Zimmerman.