State pushes to keep Trayvon Martin's past out of George Zimmerman trial

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The outrage comes from the injustice of having the killer walk free. You show me a case where a black guy kills another black guy and doesn't get charged.

It happens even when a black man shoots and kills a white guy. Trevor Dooley was eventually arrested and tried and convicted of manslaughter but he walked home the night he killed a father in front of his 8 year old daughter and went back to work after the weekend. It happens.

Trevor Dooley walked out of his suburban house Sunday afternoon, past his trimmed lawn and nice landscaping, to confront a boy riding a skateboard on the basketball court across the street. That's against the rules in this neighborhood, and Dooley, 69, was carrying a gun.

David James, 41, with 20 years in the Air Force, was playing basketball with his 8-year-old daughter. They played every Sunday.

James stood up for the skateboarder, neighbors said. The men argued and got into a "physical confrontation," the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office said. Then, in front of his daughter, James was shot dead.

What authorities don't know is who pulled the trigger, or whether it was justified.

The Sheriff's Office has not named Dooley as a suspect or charged him with a crime. When police arrived around 4 p.m., he was waiting with the dead man. He invoked his right to remain silent and called his lawyer.

"We haven't named him yet as a suspect. I'm not going to say he's not," said sheriff's Col. Albert Frost. "We have various witnesses and various conflicting statements at this point to start with. Obviously, that doesn't help us. We're trying to sort out the facts and trying to determine what really happened."

So Dooley went back to work Monday morning, driving a school bus loaded with kids.

Interesting in the context of this discussion - Trevor Dooley probably had a stronger claim on self defense than George Zimmerman could ever dream of having. But that didn't work for Trevor Dooley who was denied a Stand your Ground defense - something Zimmerman isn't even trying for - and was convicted of manslaughter.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

i don't think anything is a slam dunk, but it looks like manslaughter to me

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/florida-law/florida-involuntary-manslaughter-laws.html

Manslaughter is an included offense, so if he is guilty of manslaughter, he can also be guilty of Murder 2.

Huh?

You brought OJ into this.

[Teddy B 17,252]

You brought OJ into this.

Yes I did, but you don't seem to understand why.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Manslaughter is an included offense, so if he is guilty of manslaughter, he can also be guilty of Murder 2.

He can be found guilty of either charge but not both.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Yes I did, but you don't seem to understand why.

You said OJ was a killer, yet according to the legal system we have, that has not been proven to be the case, because the LAPD was shown to have tampered with the evidence, so you are mad black people celebrated the occasion when a black man received justice, Why can't you appreciate that?

[B_J 2,752]

Manslaughter is an included offense, so if he is guilty of manslaughter, he can also be guilty of Murder 2.

You may be convinced he acted with a depraved mind, but I can't see the jury being convinced of that. I'm sure they'll bring out enough character witnesses to show that GZ was a decent guy, always helping his neighbors, keeping people safe, helping old ladies across the street, finding lost puppies, etc. Some people on the jury will be convinced, rightly or wrongly, that he didn't have a depraved mind.

But reckless? Running at night after a kid who hadn't really done anything wrong while carrying a loaded weapon. I can see a jury agreeing that he was reckless.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

He can be found guilty of either charge but not both.

More or less. If he meets all the elements of the lesser charge and all the elements of the greater charge, then he will be found guilty of the greater charge, that is to say, the penalty for the lesser charge will not added to the penalty for the greater charge.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

There has been overwhelming outrage by the black community over the TM murder, and there hasn't even been a trial yet. How has the killer walked free? I remember seeing a very large contingent of the black community partying in the streets the day OJ was acquitted. A killer walked free that day, where was the outrage then?

I'm sure there are hundreds, if not thousands of unsolved black on black killings.

Actually I was outraged because I know OJ did it or knows who did. But that outcome was based on two issues:

1. The police department screwed up the evidence and there were claims of racism involved. If you want to catch someone, do it the right way. The evidence chain was tampered, and there were accounts of the n word being used repeately.

2. If you have enough money, you can get away with murder. Look at Puff Daddy, look at MJ. Look at the mafia that used to whack people left and right and not do a single second in jail.

The initial call was some kid was killed by a guy who was being attacked by him. The outrage didn't come until they found out he was unarmed, and basically minding his own business.

[Teddy B 17,252]

You said OJ was a killer, yet according to the legal system we have, that has not been proven to be the case, because the LAPD was shown to have tampered with the evidence, so you are mad black people celebrated the occasion when a black man received justice, Why can't you appreciate that?

I don't believe that justice was served in the OJ case. I along with the majority of people in this country believe OJ got away with murder. But that's not the point I was making. The point is that the black community shows outrage when there is a case of white on black crime, yet celebrates when a black man is acquitted of murdering two white people. The focus of their outrage and concern changes from suspect to victim along with the skin color of both. The OJ case is just one example, there have been more.

You can tell that I'm mad all the way through the internets? Man you're good.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

You may be convinced he acted with a depraved mind, but I can't see the jury being convinced of that. I'm sure they'll bring out enough character witnesses to show that GZ was a decent guy, always helping his neighbors, keeping people safe, helping old ladies across the street, finding lost puppies, etc. Some people on the jury will be convinced, rightly or wrongly, that he didn't have a depraved mind.

But reckless? Running at night after a kid who hadn't really done anything wrong while carrying a loaded weapon. I can see a jury agreeing that he was reckless.

That may be what it takes to get a guilty verdict from the jury, but the depraved mind element is not that difficult to establish. If it can be argued that TM was no longer attacking GZ at the time GZ killed him, that is enough to satisfy the element. In other words, if GZ cannot prove self-defense, murder 2 is the correct verdict.

The character witnesses will be relevant during sentencing, as will TM's family ability to testify as well.

I don't believe that justice was served in the OJ case. I along with the majority of people in this country believe OJ got away with murder. But that's not the point I was making. The point is that the black community shows outrage when there is a case of white on black crime, yet celebrates when a black man is acquitted of murdering two white people. The focus of their outrage and concern changes from suspect to victim along with the skin color of both. The OJ case is just one example, there have been more.

You can tell that I'm mad all the way through the internets? Man you're good.

You are a white devil. I can tell.

[Teddy B 17,252]

Actually I was outraged because I know OJ did it or knows who did. But that outcome was based on two issues:

1. The police department screwed up the evidence and there were claims of racism involved. If you want to catch someone, do it the right way. The evidence chain was tampered, and there were accounts of the n word being used repeately.

2. If you have enough money, you can get away with murder. Look at Puff Daddy, look at MJ. Look at the mafia that used to whack people left and right and not do a single second in jail.

The initial call was some kid was killed by a guy who was being attacked by him. The outrage didn't come until they found out he was unarmed, and basically minding his own business.

I believe your #2 was the biggest reason. The defense team strung that case out so long and diluted the entire procees. By the time it was all said and done, everyone was so punch drunk that they didn't know what was going on anymore.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

It happens even when a black man shoots and kills a white guy. Trevor Dooley was eventually arrested and tried and convicted of manslaughter but he walked home the night he killed a father in front of his 8 year old daughter and went back to work after the weekend. It happens.

Trevor Dooley walked out of his suburban house Sunday afternoon, past his trimmed lawn and nice landscaping, to confront a boy riding a skateboard on the basketball court across the street. That's against the rules in this neighborhood, and Dooley, 69, was carrying a gun.

David James, 41, with 20 years in the Air Force, was playing basketball with his 8-year-old daughter. They played every Sunday.

James stood up for the skateboarder, neighbors said. The men argued and got into a "physical confrontation," the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office said. Then, in front of his daughter, James was shot dead.

What authorities don't know is who pulled the trigger, or whether it was justified.

The Sheriff's Office has not named Dooley as a suspect or charged him with a crime. When police arrived around 4 p.m., he was waiting with the dead man. He invoked his right to remain silent and called his lawyer.

"We haven't named him yet as a suspect. I'm not going to say he's not," said sheriff's Col. Albert Frost. "We have various witnesses and various conflicting statements at this point to start with. Obviously, that doesn't help us. We're trying to sort out the facts and trying to determine what really happened."

So Dooley went back to work Monday morning, driving a school bus loaded with kids.

Interesting in the context of this discussion - Trevor Dooley probably had a stronger claim on self defense than George Zimmerman could ever dream of having. But that didn't work for Trevor Dooley who was denied a Stand your Ground defense - something Zimmerman isn't even trying for - and was convicted of manslaughter.

This is correct, as I said before, black people and SYG don't go hand in hand. Plus Mr. Dooley has been convicted, something that GZ has yet to see.

[Teddy B 17,252]

You are a white devil. I can tell.

My middle name is Lucifer!

[SMR 368]

That may be what it takes to get a guilty verdict from the jury, but the depraved mind element is not that difficult to establish. If it can be argued that TM was no longer attacking GZ at the time GZ killed him, that is enough to satisfy the element. In other words, if GZ cannot prove self-defense, murder 2 is the correct verdict.

The character witnesses will be relevant during sentencing, as will TM's family ability to testify as well.

You are a white devil. I can tell.

So you think that it went down as TM attacked GZ, beat him up, and then tried to leave, and GZ shot him while he was trying to leave. I could definitely see murder 2 if that were the case, but I don't think there is really any indication that that TM stopped attacking him before GZ killed him.

In general, I think the facts of the case need to stand for themselves. The problem is that people want this case to be a referendum on race or gun control or skittles or whatever else. The facts of the case will hopefully determine the verdict of the jury and it won't be a referendum on anything other than the way George Zimmerman behaved that night.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

This is correct, as I said before, black people and SYG don't go hand in hand. Plus Mr. Dooley has been convicted, something that GZ has yet to see.

Mr. Dooley walked away from the scene - not in handcuffs towards a police cruiser but into his home. There were no protests that I recall as to why this killer was allowed to go home following his killing another man. He was subsequently chanrged and tried and convicted of manslaughter but at present, Mr. Dooley is at home while his appeal is running its course. Again, I haven't seen massive protests over this convicted killer walking free.