State pushes to keep Trayvon Martin's past out of George Zimmerman trial

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

TM confronted him. I wouldn't do that. Dude could have a gun, you never know about peeps these days.

Actually there are two accounts, one says GZ confronted TM, GZ says it's the other way around.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Actually there are two accounts, one says GZ confronted TM, GZ says it's the other way around.

We know one thing: If he had just stayed in his car, M would be alive, and Z would not be going to trial for murder.

Edited May 15, 2013 by The Patriot

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

How do you know there's no reason? Maybe he's following you not because you're black but because he wants to cuddle with you or tell you a kind word or because you dropped your wallet and he wants to return it or because he noticed you're wearing a watch and he just wants to know what time it is...........

They fought. Zim got his but whupped. That's not hearsay.

Because all the things you just mentioned, he wouldn't have called the police beforehand. Also, he had plenty of opportunity to talk to him before it ended up in the back alleys of the neighborhood.

[GandD 5,966]

thought that was hearsay, no?

I see your point.

Unless GZ chased TM down and tackled him and then proceeded to loose the ensuing brawl, there was some point where the two walked towards each other or one didn't retreat. My goal would be to get away, not teach anyone any lessons. I'm not dying for that.

Edited May 15, 2013 by GandD

[decocker 7,198]

They fought. Zim got his but whupped. That's not hearsay.

well, g&d was lecturing yesterday on hearsay. thought maybe there had been some new and improved non hearsay info unleashed upon the masses.

[Darnell 8,479]

Pick Some Ground, and Stand There..

Stand Your Ground .

Bonus points if , the ground yer standing on, resembles a house and your name is on the deed.

[decocker 7,198]

We know one thing: If he had just stayed in his car, M would be alive, and Z would not be going to trial for murder.

gz had a duty to his community to investigate the black kid. with great self appointed power comes great shirking of one's responsibility. ..

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

We know one thing: If had just stayed in his car, M would be alive, and Z would not be going to trial for murder.

And that's my whole point. You see this dude and you think criminal, so you call the cops. You could have confronted him on the street when you first saw him. But you didn't. It was more feasible to do this in an open area with witnesses, which would have reduced the chance of an incident. But you follow this kid until you can't in a vehicle anymore, so you get out of your car and go on foot. He was aware of you following him so it wasn't like you had the element of surprise, I guess I am trying to figure out what was the point of it all.

[SMR 368]

Not in this case. The Zimmerman admitted to killing Martin. There is no doubt, reasonable, or otherwise. In this case, Zimmerman has to show his life was in danger, or a reasonable person would believe his life was in danger, AND that he only used the necessary force to protect his life, AND he had no opportunity to withdraw. There is no presumption of innocence for Zimmerman. He fails on all three counts.

If you're pinned on the ground with someone banging your head in the sidewalk, it's quite likely your life is in danger, you have no option to withdraw, and, if you don't believe you have a reasonable chance of reversing control or escaping otherwise, all force becomes reasonable and necessary to save your life, including shooting a gun. If that's all he has to prove, I'd say it's actually relatively easy. I'm not saying this case is cut and dry, but if it's only the three criteria you laid out, I think it is.

I'm not familiar with the legal intricacies and standards, but I figured that there may be some part of the case that determined whether or not he instigated and escalated the confrontation and what type of culpability that places on Zimmerman. Initially Zimmerman's actions weren't illegal. At some point, he found himself in a situation where he feared for his life and shooting Martin may have reasonably been the only option to save his life. The question becomes, before that point, exactly what illegal actions did Zimmerman take that instigated, contributed to, or escalated the confrontation.

I also agree that second degree murder seems hard to prove since I think you would have to prove an intention to kill. However, it may be that if Zimmerman was committing another felony (assault, etc.) at the time, he could be legally culpable for murder if Martin died (which he did). I'm not a lawyer, but my knowledge of crime shows says that there is something like that it the law.

[decocker 7,198]

I see your point.

Unless GZ chased TM down and tackled him and then proceeded to loose the ensuing brawl, there was some point where the two walked towards each other or one didn't retreat. My goal would be to get away, not teach anyone any lessons. I'm not dying for that.

that isn't necessarily true. gz could have chased him down and then told tm to sit tight, or even come with him to meet the cops. who knows what led to poor gz getting a little bit of #### handed back?

gz was acting as if he were a cop, like he had a right to track this kid down. but from tm's perspective he wouldn't have come across as a cop at all, especially if gz never made any sort of claim to tm concerning his reason for following him.

and stating tm fought to 'teach a lesson' is an assumption. adrenalin and fear are instinctive responses in threatening situations. maybe tm should have kept on running, since he was so close to home. more importantly, imo, he should have never been pursued in the first place.

Edited May 15, 2013 by val erie

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I guess I am trying to figure out what was the point of it all.

He was good at beating drunk women and shooting small dogs. I guess he assumed with the forty extra pounds he was packing plus a CCW on his hip, that punk black kid was no threat to his manhood. It appears he wrong, and that put him in a rage, whereupon he shot the malcreant out of pure spite.

If Zimmerman was on his butt, and shot Martin when he was at least an arms length away plus another 18" or so, how was Martin still a threat to him?

Edited May 15, 2013 by The Patriot

[mota bhai 2,675]

And that's my whole point. You see this dude and you think criminal, so you call the cops. You could have confronted him on the street when you first saw him. But you didn't. It was more feasible to do this in an open area with witnesses, which would have reduced the chance of an incident. But you follow this kid until you can't in a vehicle anymore, so you get out of your car and go on foot. He was aware of you following him so it wasn't like you had the element of surprise, I guess I am trying to figure out what was the point of it all.

This isn't even hearsay, it's pure conjecture... but I say Zim is mentally ill. Retards do that kind of ####### all the time.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

If you throw first punch and break my nose and if I fear for my life, yes I can shoot you.

Thats called self defense.

If you start the confrontation, you can't claim self defense.

[B_J 2,752]

And that's my whole point. You see this dude and you think criminal, so you call the cops. You could have confronted him on the street when you first saw him. But you didn't. It was more feasible to do this in an open area with witnesses, which would have reduced the chance of an incident. But you follow this kid until you can't in a vehicle anymore, so you get out of your car and go on foot. He was aware of you following him so it wasn't like you had the element of surprise, I guess I am trying to figure out what was the point of it all.

There is a possibility that GZ is actually a pretty good guy. He might just be a guy who tries to watch out for his neighbors. Maybe he's not a guy looking to shoot a thug. Maybe he's just trying to do the right thing and call the cops instead of confronting somebody. Maybe he never intended to have a confrontation; maybe he just wanted to know where TM went so he could tell the cops.

BUT, the really good guy argument is hurt when GZ lied to the judge about being able to post bond. Good guys aren't usually liars.

[GandD 5,966]

that isn't necessarily true. gz could have chased him down and then told tm to sit tight, or even come with him to meet the cops. who knows what led to poor gz getting a little bit of #### handed back?

gz was acting as if he were a cop, like he had a right to track this kid down. but from tm's perspective he wouldn't have come across as a cop at all, especially if gz never made any sort of claim to tm concerning his reason for following him.

and stating tm fought to 'teach a lesson' is an assumption. adrenalin and fear are instinctive responses in threatening situations. maybe tm should have kept on running, since he was so close to home. more importantly, imo, he should have never been pursued in the first place.

Agreed

Also if GZ didn't have a gun, the chances of someone dying in this incident are down dramatically. (Not completely gunnies)

If you start the confrontation, you can't claim self defense.

When does a confrontation start?