are teachers covered by freedom of speech?

[B_J 2,752]

It should not matter where the school is located. It is a public school for everyone.

Shouldn't, but it does. If the state has teachers' unions will make a difference. Also, the prevailing attitude of the surrounding community would (sadly) make a difference as well.

[himher 634]

Would it be wrong for a teacher, let's say, a science teacher, to say things that contradict religion? How about if a teacher told kids that there was no Santa? If a teacher told the kids there was no god? Where do we draw the line here?

I was a science teacher, and I taught kids in a country where they are not religious, so I didn't have this problem. If, however, someone were to ask me about god, I would tell them that there is no proof of any god, and no non-delusional reason for someone to believe gods exists. Would this be something someone in the U.S. could be sued for?

Note: I am not using this as defense of hate speech. Obviously, "we should round up all the Muslims and do xyz with them" is hate speech and completely wrong. I'm asking where people think the line should be drawn.

The line should be drawn exactly where the line is drawn at prayer in public schools. Schools, as public entities, are constitutionally prohibited from preference for or aversion against any religion.

"respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" is pretty clear and much case law has been established to apply these prohibitions to all public institutions. Equal protection is applied to the states and to the citizens of the states. "Free speech" does not allow a public servant to violate other constitutional principles and especially in and on behalf of a public institution.

Lawsuits are not always to "make profits". Sometimes they make points and by doing so establish case law that prevents the activity from being repeated.

Edited May 10, 2013 by himher

[sandinista! 1,816]

One would also expect a science teacher to have a basic understanding of what "delusional" means, and its connotations, and as a teacher of children, to not foster contempt for other human beings, regardless of what they believe or don't believe, by not using such loaded language in a classroom.

[duraaraa 203]

One would also expect a science teacher to have a basic understanding of what "delusional" means, and its connotations, and as a teacher of children, to not foster contempt for other human beings, regardless of what they believe or don't believe, by not using such loaded language in a classroom.

I wasn't a science teacher in an English speaking country.

The definition of delusional would be:

a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs

Most religions would be covered by that definition, no?

So would many superstitions:

Breaking a mirror causes bad luck - Delusional

Walking under a ladder causes bad luck - Delusional

Whistling in your house will cause a sand storm to blow it away - Delusional

Japanese dolls have evil spirits in them and their hair grows longer - Delusional

I am an equal opportunity person -- I call things that are delusional delusional, regardless of political correctness. I have no problem with people having the right to believe such things... but I wouldn't encourage my students to.

Edited May 10, 2013 by duraaraa

[sara..... 371]

there were a lot of back and forth phone calls after our visit to the school over .......we asked or for them to look into this and for us to have a meeting with the teacher...we didn't approach this with anger because that does not help the situation...what has happened so far is the teacher was sent home they are looking into if he had voiced his personal opinion to other classes he taught......the principle took over the English class my sister is in yesterday from what we can see he is trying to repair what has happened........let see what the out come is we are not really asking for this teacher to be fired or disciplined that resolves nothing.....we are asking for education....we would feel the same way if something had been said about people that are Jewish,Jehovah Witness or any other religion.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

there were a lot of back and forth phone calls after our visit to the school over .......we asked or for them to look into this and for us to have a meeting with the teacher...we didn't approach this with anger because that does not help the situation...what has happened so far is the teacher was sent home they are looking into if he had voiced his personal opinion to other classes he taught......the principle took over the English class my sister is in yesterday from what we can see he is trying to repair what has happened........let see what the out come is we are not really asking for this teacher to be fired or disciplined that resolves nothing.....we are asking for education....we would feel the same way if something had been said about people that are Jewish,Jehovah Witness or any other religion.

Glad you are handling this properly. Hopefully this can be resolved without further incident.

[Golden Gate 530]

I wasn't a science teacher in an English speaking country.

The definition of delusional would be:

a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs

Most religions would be covered by that definition, no?

So would many superstitions:

Breaking a mirror causes bad luck - Delusional

Walking under a ladder causes bad luck - Delusional

Whistling in your house will cause a sand storm to blow it away - Delusional

Japanese dolls have evil spirits in them and their hair grows longer - Delusional

I am an equal opportunity person -- I call things that are delusional delusional, regardless of political correctness. I have no problem with people having the right to believe such things... but I wouldn't encourage my students to.

Just because YOU don't believe in a system of beliefs that gives others comfort, a sense of well-being and order to their lives, doesn't make THEM delusional.

Check out this article about beliefs and the brain. It's interesting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/brainongod.htm

[B_J 2,752]

there were a lot of back and forth phone calls after our visit to the school over .......we asked or for them to look into this and for us to have a meeting with the teacher...we didn't approach this with anger because that does not help the situation...what has happened so far is the teacher was sent home they are looking into if he had voiced his personal opinion to other classes he taught......the principle took over the English class my sister is in yesterday from what we can see he is trying to repair what has happened........let see what the out come is we are not really asking for this teacher to be fired or disciplined that resolves nothing.....we are asking for education....we would feel the same way if something had been said about people that are Jewish,Jehovah Witness or any other religion.

This is a really messed up situation and the only good thing is the way you are dealing with it. If he lost his job, he would probably just be more angry because some foreign Muslims got him fired.

I've seen the way you handle conflicts here and you're pretty good at changing people's opinion just by being calm and kind. Hopefully you'll have success with this guy.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

If he lost his job, he would probably just be more angry because some foreign Muslims got him fired.

That's what the teacher would think, anyways. If he lost his job, what would have gotten him fired would not have been some foreign Muslim but his own bigotry which he wrongfully paraded in front of a classroom. Not that a bigot would ever be able to actually figure that out or see it that way but it would still be true.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Glad you are handling this properly. Hopefully this can be resolved without further incident.

Not once the local news agencies get wind of this. This could go viral at anytime.

[sara..... 371]

Not once the local news agencies get wind of this. This could go viral at anytime.

I hope that does not happen

[ready4ONE 5,400]

I suspected that the principal would take action on this incident! Sounds like you are on the right path to getting this incident resolved.

GOOD!

[duraaraa 203]

Just because YOU don't believe in a system of beliefs that gives others comfort, a sense of well-being and order to their lives, doesn't make THEM delusional.

Check out this article about beliefs and the brain. It's interesting:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/brainongod.htm

It is interesting, of course. Meditation without any supernatural connections can have similar effects.

When I was a small child, I believed in Santa Claus. I even tried to stay up all night to meet him. It gave me a lot of comfort to think that there was someone out there who wanted to bring me presents, based on my behavior.

Turned out there wasn't any Santa Claus. I certainly recognize my belief as delusional. Another example of delusional beliefs I had would be that magicians could really do magic. I was a dumb kid, I guess

Ironically, I have never believed in any gods because I wasn't raised in a religious household.

Religion brings people comfort, as do many other things. The point is, the fact that believing something that is obviously not true giving someone happiness and comfort does not mean that it is non-delusional to believe in it. If people believe in these things and keep them to themselves, I don't care -- they can believe in whatever they want. The problem is, people want everyone to believe what they do, and threats, violence, wars, and terrorism come from this want. As a science teacher, I would be best to stick to reality, and call delusion delusion. If there is a child who is already religious, I would not mock him or tell him to give up his beliefs. However, if a child heard from someone who is spreading their religion and wanted to ask if it was true, I would tell them that such people have been brainwashed to believe in something which isn't true.

Seriously, I have nothing against those who are religion, up to the point until they try to force it on others. Denying gays the right to marry is the most recent example involving the Christians in the U.S. Saying terrorism by Muslims is not religion-based would be false. The troubles Palestinians face in Israel is also entirely because of religious differences. There are many disastrous examples throughout history where religion causes people to lose their own cultures, languages, and identities. Delusion causes a lot of problems, which is why I would never encourage it.

What do you think about those who are given comfort by the godliness of the Kim family in North Korea? I'm sure it effects their brain in the same way as your article mentioned.

Edited May 11, 2013 by duraaraa

[Golden Gate 530]

It is interesting, of course. Meditation without any supernatural connections can have similar effects.

When I was a small child, I believed in Santa Claus. I even tried to stay up all night to meet him. It gave me a lot of comfort to think that there was someone out there who wanted to bring me presents, based on my behavior.

Turned out there wasn't any Santa Claus. I certainly recognize my belief as delusional. Another example of delusional beliefs I had would be that magicians could really do magic. I was a dumb kid, I guess

Ironically, I have never believed in any gods because I wasn't raised in a religious household.

Religion brings people comfort, as do many other things. The point is, the fact that believing something that is obviously not true giving someone happiness and comfort does not mean that it is non-delusional to believe in it. If people believe in these things and keep them to themselves, I don't care -- they can believe in whatever they want. The problem is, people want everyone to believe what they do, and threats, violence, wars, and terrorism come from this want. As a science teacher, I would be best to stick to reality, and call delusion delusion. If there is a child who is already religious, I would not mock him or tell him to give up his beliefs. However, if a child heard from someone who is spreading their religion and wanted to ask if it was true, I would tell them that such people have been brainwashed to believe in something which isn't true.

Seriously, I have nothing against those who are religion, up to the point until they try to force it on others. Denying gays the right to marry is the most recent example involving the Christians in the U.S. Saying terrorism by Muslims is not religion-based would be false. The troubles Palestinians face in Israel is also entirely because of religious differences. There are many disastrous examples throughout history where religion causes people to lose their own cultures, languages, and identities. Delusion causes a lot of problems, which is why I would never encourage it.

What do you think about those who are given comfort by the godliness of the Kim family in North Korea? I'm sure it effects their brain in the same way as your article mentioned.

I think attributing these problems to religion is simplistic. Man has created these problems and continues to create these problems. As a teacher, I don't think it is ethical to be telling children anything about their or anybody elses religious beliefs or lack thereof. What people believe or don't believe is not the concern of the teacher in a country where we have a separation of church and state. Neither should we be encouraging nor discouraging it.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Golden Gate

[sandinista! 1,816]

Words have meanings. And implications, especially in classrooms of children.

From a medical science standpoint, no, benign religious beliefs are not considered a form of psychosis, and are not remotely treated as such. None of my nursing training ever included writing care plans for Disturbed Thought Processes on the basis of a patient wearing a crucifix, or a kippah.

That's why I said I expected more of a science teacher. Promoting children to regard people who don't have mental illnesses as having mental illnesses, with no basis in medical science seems pretty crappy.

That's not doing right by children, that's being a dogmatic jerk.

There's a whole gamut of science based studies too into how acts of terrorism like suicide bombings have their basis in reaction to foreign occupations and land disputes as opposed to religion/religious differences between peoples.