Thanks to Taliban, polio returns to North Waziristan

[Karee 4,190]

There's a big difference between denouncing the horrificness of murdering vaccine workers, and heaping ####### and derision on all Pakistanis, just for being Pakistani, even if they have nothing to do with said murders of anyone.

Please point out where I heaped sh!t and derision on all Pakistanis. I didn't.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Karee

[Karee 4,190]

Here's 12 deans from the top public health universities in the country doing just the same. None of which means public health officials need your kindergarten lesson about two wrongs, or that America's top public health educators are worthless because of their " blind faith of a certain religion [that] has apparently interfered with [their] ability to use logic. Seems to happen a lot with that religion for some reason when a point is trying to be made. Not sure why." as Karee would say.

http://www.jhsph.edu/news/news-releases/2013/klag-CIA-vaccination-cover-pakistan.html

How many people were murdered due to these 12 deans?

[sandinista! 1,816]

It's really simple what's going on here. Some religious nuts that happen to be Islamists are stopping children from getting vaccinated. No ####### flinging at all. It's a simple fact. Sorry if you don't like facts.

Right, which everyone has denounced here. Everyone. But not everyone will denounce the people who poured a bunch of of gasoline on the fire that was already burning, consequences be damned. Blind jingoism, contempt for Pakistanis anyways, etc, seem to be the reasons.

[Karee 4,190]

Right, which everyone has denounced here. Everyone. But not everyone will denounce the people who poured a bunch of of gasoline on the fire that was already burning, consequences be damned. Blind jingoism, contempt for Pakistanis anyways, etc, seem to be the reasons.

Apology accepted.

[sandinista! 1,816]

How many people were murdered due to these 12 deans?

This disguising of an intelligence-gathering effort as a humanitarian public health service has resulted in serious collateral consequences that affect the public health community. In September of 2012, after working for 30 years in Pakistan, Save the Children was ordered to remove all expatriate staff from the country, despite never having employed Dr. Afridi. Last month, eight polio vaccination workers were assassinated, resulting in the suspension of U.N. polio eradication efforts in Pakistan

Who are they condemning besides the POS murderers?

[GandD 5,966]

You're right, it totally doesn't. And no one, least of all me, has said it does. While this is a great sentiment, what does it have to do with anything I've actually said here? Specifically, what?

This statement

"both countries are experiencing public health crises. but the callousness of the responses when it comes to dead or maimed pakistani kids coming down with polio would never, ever be heaped upon the welsh or their children."

I thought it was a shift from the actual issue to defend the Pakistani's as a whole. As in to point out a biased agenda for writing/posting this article in the first place. Maybe some people have that, but I didn't think this was a stereotyping thing.

[sandinista! 1,816]

It's really simple what's going on here. Some religious nuts that happen to be Islamists are stopping children from getting vaccinated. No ####### flinging at all. It's a simple fact. Sorry if you don't like facts. The only thing you have offered as a response is some oddball thing about Wales, which is totally off topic.

No less on topic than citing Pakistanis' in general not caring about their children as the cause for this disease outbreak.

Funnily enough, vaccination rates in Afghanistan, even under Taliban controlled areas, are in far better shape than in Pakistan. How, and why?

Refusal rates remain more of an issue in Pakistan than in Afghanistan; the support of the Afghan Quetta Shura Taliban for polio vaccinations has been instrumental in contributing to high acceptance rates by local communities in Afghanistan for the polio vaccine. Refusal rates in Afghanistan are traditionally very low.

Strategies to Address Challenges Security Environment and Natural Disasters

GPEI members and the governments of Afghanistan and Pakistan have designed several innovative strategies to address the problems created by both the security environment and natural disasters. First, while GPEI members maintain strict neutrality in the conflicts to politicization of the vaccination campaign, they have at times coordinated their work with international and Afghan security forces to ensure the safety of their local staff.21 GPEI has also coordinated with the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), which has helped vaccination teams reach conflict zones.

Second, GPEI has also engaged with nontraditional actors to gain access to otherwise inaccessible areas. Local teams engage community leaders, and occasionally armed insurgents, such as the Quetta Shura Taliban, in their efforts to reach children in unstable areas. The support of the Taliban is an unprecedented, albeit unofficial, example of their cooperating with branches of the Afghan government and the international community.

http://csis.org/files/publication/120810_Chang_EradicatingPolio_Web.pdf

[Karee 4,190]

No less on topic than citing Pakistanis' in general not caring about their children as the cause for this disease outbreak.

Funnily enough, vaccination rates in Afghanistan, even under Taliban controlled areas, are in far better shape than in Pakistan. How, and why?

http://csis.org/files/publication/120810_Chang_EradicatingPolio_Web.pdf

What are you talking about? Who said anything about Pakistanis not caring for their children? Maybe I missed a post somewhere?

Maybe the vaccination rates are higher in Afghanistan because the health workers are protected by the U.S. military, and not being assasinated. Just a guess.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Karee

[sandinista! 1,816]

This statement

"both countries are experiencing public health crises. but the callousness of the responses when it comes to dead or maimed pakistani kids coming down with polio would never, ever be heaped upon the welsh or their children."

I thought it was a shift from the actual issue to defend the Pakistani's as a whole. As in to point out a biased agenda for writing/posting this article in the first place. Maybe some people have that, but I didn't think this was a stereotyping thing.

Yeah, no.

We can agree to disagree on what I think is a definite bias in how people feel about the actual innocent children involved in all this. That's fine. I've never seen anyone contemptuously say "let God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster handle it" when it comes to those kids in Wales being endangered due to their unvaccinated status though.

I don't see how that can be interpreted as me trying to make two wrongs equal a right.

I think both things are wrong--terrorizing people by not allowing them to get vaccinated, and terrorizing vaccine workers is horribly wrong. Also wrong is violating human beings' rights to not be given false medical care, and not giving a rip about how that affects public health in a major conflict zone. All of those things can be wrong, at the same time.

[sandinista! 1,816]

What are you talking about? Who said anything about Pakistanis not caring for their children? Maybe I missed a post somewhere?

Maybe the vaccination rates are higher in Afghanistan because the health workers are protected by the U.S. military, and not being assasinated. Just a guess.

Then who were you talking about in your first post?

Lol about the US military protecting health workers in Afghanistan. No.

Local teams engage community leaders, and occasionally armed insurgents, such as the Quetta Shura Taliban, in their efforts to reach children in unstable areas. The support of the Taliban is an unprecedented, albeit unofficial, example of their cooperating with branches of the Afghan government and the international community. Mullah Omar, the Talibans leader, wrote and signed letters approving several campaigns (the Taliban offered 10 letters of endorsement in 2009 alone).22 WHO officials claim the letters have helped them enter dozens of previously out- of-bounds villages in southern Afghanistan and have protected some teams from militants who were suspicious of their activity.

[Karee 4,190]

Then who were you talking about in your first post?

Lol about the US military protecting health workers in Afghanistan. No.

Local teams engage community leaders, and occasionally armed insurgents, such as the Quetta Shura Taliban, in their efforts to reach children in unstable areas. The support of the Taliban is an unprecedented, albeit unofficial, example of their cooperating with branches of the Afghan government and the international community. Mullah Omar, the Talibans leader, wrote and signed letters approving several campaigns (the Taliban offered 10 letters of endorsement in 2009 alone).22 WHO officials claim the letters have helped them enter dozens of previously out- of-bounds villages in southern Afghanistan and have protected some teams from militants who were suspicious of their activity.

I was talking about tribesmen in North Waziristan. I stand by that post that they don't care about their children contracting Polio since they wont allow their children to be vaccinated. Then you brought up some obscure Welsh reference.

I can post about 1000 links about how much the Taliban care about children here if you'd like. So don't give me that garbage. My favorite is the girl they shot on the school bus. "The Taliban offered 10 letters of endorsement." I actually can't believe you posted that. That's like Charles Manson endorsing a day care center.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Karee

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Regardless of what Welsh public health response has been, it is nevertheless stupidity, ignorance, and superstition at a large enough scale in the general public that got them to this point. That's all I was pointing out. And the fact that there were so many stupid, ignorant, and superstitious people there, even though there's never ever been a violation of their human rights under the guise of phony medical care like there recently was in Pakistan is even further testament to how ridiculous the situation is the UK has gotten itself into recently. That's all.

There's still a huge difference between people deciding for whatever stupid or ridiculous reason to willfully endanger their children and between people being unable to get their children protective vaccinations because a murderous group makes those vaccinations unavailable to everyone in a region - whether one wants them or not. That's all.

[james&olya 1,121]

how many welsh drs have attempted to collect DNA samples from welsh children with zero consent, under the guise of a false vaccine program that left children vulnerable to a deadly disease, but led to believe they were protected?

both countries are experiencing public health crises. but the callousness of the responses when it comes to dead or maimed pakistani kids coming down with polio would never, ever be heaped upon the welsh or their children. not in a million years. somehow the ignorance and superstition that has led to the crisis in the UK is magically different than that of pakistan's. literate welsh not living in war zones get passes pakistanis in north waziristan never will.

the horrificness of murdered vaccine workers does not cancel out, or even have anything to do with the depravity of a spy agency fcuking with public health on any scale. it does not grant anyone, anywhere the right to piss all over the sanctity of medical ethics, and piss all over the rights of every human being to not be assaulted by medical personnel.

nor does it have a goddam thing to do with the derision and contempt expressed even for pakistanis at risk from polio who have nothing to do with murdered vaccine workers and nothing to do with taliban.

there's a reason why medical aid groups and public health officials have called this whole thing an unmitigated disaster, and it's not because drs without borders are fans or apologists of the taliban, or the WHO didn't really want osama bin laden to be found.

Then explain to me why the head of alQaeda after bin Laden was killed, who happens to be a physician as I understand, has not made it a priority to educate his Taliban allies as to the very real need for these children to be immunized? Could it be because, in spite of his knowledge, it just does not matter enough to him and his allies? Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that the Taliban are acting dishonorably?

[james&olya 1,121]

Dear PRers;

I have similar stories from Australia, Wales, Denmark, Norway and even from USA when people from certain cult have erupted and killed one doctor and injured many others….

In Afghanistan and Pakistan, people are very highly educated, but maybe they don’t talk too much, and they don’t have to dress in suits to prove it… they have doctors, nuclear engineers….

If they ban such things, it doesn’t mean they don’t care about their children’s safety… on the contrary, they love their children, more than any other people in the world, at least because of the unstable environment around them, which makes them loser to each other for protection…

The reason is, somebody has used these ways to penetrate them, pollute their children, kidnap them for a better negotiation standoff and potentials…. UN and their buddies… sorry bodies like UNICEF have admitted that in Darfur Sudan, and promised to send some of their staff to trial.. but I am not sure if they did or forgot to do…

Afghans know what they are doing, they are not illiterate, they are smart enough even if their women are face covered……

With compliments

[GandD 5,966]

Yeah, no.

We can agree to disagree on what I think is a definite bias in how people feel about the actual innocent children involved in all this. That's fine. I've never seen anyone contemptuously say "let God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster handle it" when it comes to those kids in Wales being endangered due to their unvaccinated status though.

I don't see how that can be interpreted as me trying to make two wrongs equal a right.

I think both things are wrong--terrorizing people by not allowing them to get vaccinated, and terrorizing vaccine workers is horribly wrong. Also wrong is violating human beings' rights to not be given false medical care, and not giving a rip about how that affects public health in a major conflict zone. All of those things can be wrong, at the same time.

Why can't you just speak to the situation that was posted? I know these threads tend to go every which way and I've done my share of contributing to that. The DB's in this article are whats for discussion but it keeps getting directed to examples of it in other cultures however loosely connected they may be. If I say "I don't think this is an accurate portal of Pakistani's or Muslim's or whatever", can you and I discuss the ideological fails that lead to the people in this article being against immunization?

And I know people here tend to be biased about Pakistani's and Muslims but we don't have to let it go to that level if we don't want.