Stop Amnesty

[berber_wife 90]

Well, I don't know whether legal immigrants integrate better than illegals or vice versa. My ESL class has a mix of legal and illegal immigrants and all of them have been here for at least a few years and still haven't learned English.

As far as the student I referred to before, I believe he was around 15 when he came to the US, so he probably didn't have a full understanding of what he was doing. Either way, I wouldn't tell someone who has lived more than half his life in the US to stand in the back of the line and wait his turn. And it doesn't make me mad in light of the fact that my S/O and I have a super sucky visa process ahead of us. We had the resources to deal with it.

As fair as the fairness aspect, I'm not well-versed in the refugee process, but wouldn't people from places with active conflicts (DRC, Sudan, Somalia) actually have a leg up over Mexicans as to becoming legal from the get-go? They can claim asylum. But then you have countries like Malawi, that have such extreme poverty but no active conflicts and most people there have no chance of immigration. Isn't it unfair that the Malawians have less opportunities to immigrate because there aren't tons of rebel soliders gang-raping them?

I do absolutely agree with you on your last point though. When my S/O was here over the winter, I kept offering to take him to mosque, to Moroccan restaurants, to try and find other Muslims. He didn't even want to go, saying that he didn't want to spend his time in the US hanging out with people he would be hanging out with in Morocco. I found that really encourage in terms of his future immigration here.

Edited April 20, 2013 by futureberberwife

[duraaraa 203]

I don't think that the initial argument you commented on was illogical. Impractical and idealogical, yes, but not illogical.

Whether my comment is logical or not is in the eye of the beholder, but, if you ask me, living life in a practical way leads to living a boring life.

Edited April 20, 2013 by duraaraa

[BaBamSam 239]

Whether my comment is logical or not is in the eye of the beholder, but, if you ask me, living life in a practical way leads to living a boring life.

Living life and political reform are not the same thing in regards to practicality, thankfully.

[erynaught 43]

Instead we criminalize it as if these people are all dangerous killers.

You don't need to be a dangerous killer to be a criminal. Think Bernie Madoff - not a killer, not violent, in fact he was a very likable dude - yet his crimes had a disastrous impact on hundreds/thousands of people.

Other than hyperbole, I don't see where illegal aliens are put into the same category as dangerous killers (unless of course the illegal alien is also a dangerous killer).

[BaBamSam 239]

You don't need to be a dangerous killer to be a criminal. Think Bernie Madoff - not a killer, not violent, in fact he was a very likable dude - yet his crimes had a disastrous impact on hundreds/thousands of people.

Other than hyperbole, I don't see where illegal aliens are put into the same category as dangerous killers (unless of course the illegal alien is also a dangerous killer).

Never said it wasn't illegal, but I was attempting to highlight that there are various degrees of criminality.

[erynaught 43]

When I was 15 I broke the law by staying outside after 10:00pm, our town's curfew for anyone under age 16. I also drank underage in college. How badly have I damaged my moral character? Next thing you know I'll be dealing drugs to the local children.

Other than an avatar/username/words on a screen - I don't know you, so how would I be able to assess your moral character?

However, as an adult if you condone/enable underage drinking then I would say your moral character is lacking.

Sure, most of use have have broken the rules and had transgressions of the law at one time or another; some more severe perhaps than others. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it acceptable. And violation of a federal law is certainly of a greater magnitude than violating a local civil ordinance.

The fact of the matter is that people who are willing to lie for personal gain, to flaunt the law are very likely to lie again for person gain and to disregard the law in the future because they've demonstrated a lack of respect which is a characteristic.

I'm not saying that minor infractions should be held against someone for the rest of their lives. A candidate for immigration needs to be assessed in totality in terms of what they bring and the circumstances by which they find themselves immigrating. But willful violation of the law shouldn't be blindly tolerated - all other considerations being equal, preference should be given to those who have demonstrated respect for the laws of the country they wish to live in.

And did you go to school? Cheating was as rampant as the hormones in most I've seen or heard of.

Yes I went to school. Eight years after high school. Never cheated. Didn't need to. I had a good friend who was kicked out of an incredible graduate program in his third year because he was caught cheating - he was (still is) my friend, but without a doubt he deserved what he got.

Again, just because it happens doesn't mean that it is acceptable or right. That's where kids get the understanding that its not only okay, but acceptable, to break the rules to get ahead ... and for some this escalates into more violent means to an end.

[erynaught 43]

They can process the applications like tourist visas, at the foreign embassies, if they have to. Or people can be issued visas on arrival after a quick database check... the airlines could even determine eligibility when people buy their flight tickets, if it's as easy as checking a database. I don't see the need for a lengthy USCIS-esque process.

You would be surprised how much infrastructure a working force of 600 million could come up with in a year. In time, there would be more cities, more business to do, and more workers to do it. America has a lot of empty land.

"Quick" and "International Travel" don't mix well. There isn't a global database either ... there are a multitude of databases and the checking isn't as seamless and efficient as you allude.

Your work force of 600 million is only going to come up with infrastructure if you have the resources to pay them first. And filling land with buildings and people does make sense either, you still need resources like potable water and arable land for food and power.

[BaBamSam 239]

Other than an avatar/username/words on a screen - I don't know you, so how would I be able to assess your moral character?

However, as an adult if you condone/enable underage drinking then I would say your moral character is lacking.

Sure, most of use have have broken the rules and had transgressions of the law at one time or another; some more severe perhaps than others. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it acceptable. And violation of a federal law is certainly of a greater magnitude than violating a local civil ordinance.

The fact of the matter is that people who are willing to lie for personal gain, to flaunt the law are very likely to lie again for person gain and to disregard the law in the future because they've demonstrated a lack of respect which is a characteristic. Did you just describe every member of our government?[/b]

I'm not saying that minor infractions should be held against someone for the rest of their lives. A candidate for immigration needs to be assessed in totality in terms of what they bring and the circumstances by which they find themselves immigrating. But willful violation of the law shouldn't be blindly tolerated - all other considerations being equal, preference should be given to those who have demonstrated respect for the laws of the country they wish to live in.

Yes I went to school. Eight years after high school. Never cheated. Didn't need to. I had a good friend who was kicked out of an incredible graduate program in his third year because he was caught cheating - he was (still is) my friend, but without a doubt he deserved what he got.

Again, just because it happens doesn't mean that it is acceptable or right. That's where kids get the understanding that its not only okay, but acceptable, to break the rules to get ahead ... and for some this escalates into more violent means to an end.

I take it you wouldn't buy into civil disobedience. Laws can be challenged, have been challenged, and are still be challenged. I believe that people who blindly obey governments without questioning anything ever are a bit dangerous to the future of society, personally. Challenging society facilitates change and growth. When we become complacent and overtly obedient, we hurt ourselves.

I actually fully support lowering the drinking age to 18. So I guess this qualifies as condoning and you can send me directly to hell. I will not pass GO. I will not collect $200.

I didn't suggest you cheated. I personally didn't either, but I also wouldn't make such a leap to suggest that cheating on a test equates to violence on any scale.

We are always going to disagree with this because I don't believe that someone entering a country illegally is a dramatic red mark on their moral character card. As you said, you don't know these people any better than you know me - so how can you judge their character?

[duraaraa 203]

"Quick" and "International Travel" don't mix well. There isn't a global database either ... there are a multitude of databases and the checking isn't as seamless and efficient as you allude.

Your work force of 600 million is only going to come up with infrastructure if you have the resources to pay them first. And filling land with buildings and people does make sense either, you still need resources like potable water and arable land for food and power.

Without resources to pay the 600 million, what motivates them to move to the U.S. in the first place?

[erynaught 43]

I teach Adult ESL classes and there's a guy who has been here for 25 years. He's spent more of my life in the US than he has in Mexico. He's never been back to Mexico. His parents died without him being there. He works full-time and has a family but attends every English class he can. How could I say someone like that doesn't deserve citizenship?

That's easy - he hasn't met all the requirements. Full time employment, family sacrifice and enrollment in ESL classes are not requirements for citizenship. Is he legally present? If so, then he's demonstrated quite a bit of determination and should be encouraged to take the exam, the oath and get his citizenship.

[duraaraa 203]

I take it you wouldn't buy into civil disobedience. Laws can be challenged, have been challenged, and are still be challenged. I believe that people who blindly obey governments without questioning anything ever are a bit dangerous to the future of society, personally. Challenging society facilitates change and growth. When we become complacent and overtly obedient, we hurt ourselves.

I actually fully support lowering the drinking age to 18. So I guess this qualifies as condoning and you can send me directly to hell. I will not pass GO. I will not collect $200.

I didn't suggest you cheated. I personally didn't either, but I also wouldn't make such a leap to suggest that cheating on a test equates to violence on any scale.

We are always going to disagree with this because I don't believe that someone entering a country illegally is a dramatic red mark on their moral character card. As you said, you don't know these people any better than you know me - so how can you judge their character?

Blindly obeying the government seems the direction America is headed in, though, unfortunately. I wouldn't be surprised if within ten years our personal emails would be readily accessible to whatever government authority wanted to read them.. and probably resold to credit agencies and what have you.

I lived outside of the U.S. for a considerable time...I came back. This whole time, mind you, I never received any advertising. As soon as I bought a new car, somehow, everyone seemed to know who I am and where I live. This kind of thing really grinds my gears, and it seems that our privacy rights are going to dwindle, because companies feed off of our personal information, and the same companies have a pretty good grip on the government.

It's sad that the internet is the very thing that liberates us, but it will turn into something used to spy on us.

Edited April 20, 2013 by duraaraa

[erynaught 43]

Without resources to pay the 600 million, what motivates them to move to the U.S. in the first place?

Considering the workforce in the US is currently about 145 million people, I think you'd find many unemployed (and unhappy) people if another 455 million showed up.

[duraaraa 203]

Considering the workforce in the US is currently about 145 million people, I think you'd find many unemployed (and unhappy) people if another 455 million showed up.

From a capitalism standpoint, isn't the increased competition a good thing?

[erynaught 43]

I take it you wouldn't buy into civil disobedience. Laws can be challenged, have been challenged, and are still be challenged. I believe that people who blindly obey governments without questioning anything ever are a bit dangerous to the future of society, personally. Challenging society facilitates change and growth. When we become complacent and overtly obedient, we hurt ourselves.

I didn't suggest you cheated. I personally didn't either, but I also wouldn't make such a leap to suggest that cheating on a test equates to violence on any scale.

We are always going to disagree with this because I don't believe that someone entering a country illegally is a dramatic red mark on their moral character card. As you said, you don't know these people any better than you know me - so how can you judge their character?

Yes, I did describe (most) everyone in our government - thanks for pointing that out, I loved it.

Actually, I do buy into civil disobedience, for all the reasons you noted above. Protesting the Vietnam Conflict was popular in my day and I would have dodged the draft had I been selected. I was as idealistic as duraarraa back then ... idealism is good ... but when I found myself with an unexpected mouth to feed (in addition to all the other responsibilities that go along with a newborn child) ... I had to grow up fast and face the practicalities of life for what they are. But I never did and still don't condone violence, lying, cheating or stealing.

Cheating doesn't directly result in violence, but the idea that shortcuts are acceptable can. This was my point.

I take it you wouldn't buy into civil disobedience. Laws can be challenged, have been challenged, and are still be challenged. I believe that people who blindly obey governments without questioning anything ever are a bit dangerous to the future of society, personally. Challenging society facilitates change and growth. When we become complacent and overtly obedient, we hurt ourselves.

I didn't suggest you cheated. I personally didn't either, but I also wouldn't make such a leap to suggest that cheating on a test equates to violence on any scale.

We are always going to disagree with this because I don't believe that someone entering a country illegally is a dramatic red mark on their moral character card. As you said, you don't know these people any better than you know me - so how can you judge their character?

Yeah, we probably will. That's okay. However, I don't think illegal entry/presence is as dramatic a red mark as you make it out to be, but a red mark

nonetheless. Judgements of character are based upon the information presented - if this is all I know, then my information is limited, but I can still make a judgement. People do it all the time. Immigration does it all the time.

I actually fully support lowering the drinking age to 18. So I guess this qualifies as condoning and you can send me directly to hell. I will not pass GO. I will not collect $200.

I don't really care what the legal drinking age is (well, except the impact it may have on my auto insurance rates). I don't drink (alcohol) and I'm well above whatever age has been proposed anyway. I don't believe in hell either, so won't be sending you there. However, supporting a lower drinking age is not the same as condoning underage drinking, unless your tactic is to juice up as many 18-20 year olds as part of your campaign to encourage lowering of the drinking age (a hypothetical scenario - not accusing you of anything).

From a capitalism standpoint, isn't the increased competition a good thing?

Yeah, guess so ... but I think supply (workers) would so far exceed demand (jobs) that the system would collapse in chaos.

[erynaught 43]

As soon as I bought a new car,

Oh no, this pure idealistic vision I've had of you has been shattered. A new car? Really?

Even with money to afford a new car, I still cannot bring myself to buy one ... just a newer clunker than the older clunkers I used to own.