Stop Amnesty

[BaBamSam 239]

If everybody discounts ideological thinking, we'll never end up with an ideal society

Yes. I think it's important, from a policy and practicality standpoint, to take small steps rather than ones that cause too much chaos too fast, but if we maintain that ideal is impossible, then it will be. Self-fulfilling prophecy and all.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

I think that is the idea America was founded on. People who didn't like where they were living could move to the U.S. and experience more freedom.

And America would soon become a place that wouldn't be so desirable anymore. It would be just like the country the people were trying to get away from in the first place.

[berber_wife 90]

If he's been taking English for 25 years he deserves his PhD

Well, that brings me to another topic: immigrant communities. In Southern FL, we have tons of immigrant enclaves where people absolutely don't integrate and don't learn a word of English. Several of my ESL students have been here for 5, 15 and in this case, 25 years and they're still in the beginning English. This particular student (and some others) lived most of their years in the US in Miami, where Spanish is pretty much the defacto first language.

But I gotta tell you, when they get into class, they are so eager to learn English. In their intake interviews, many of them will actually request a teacher who doesn't know Spanish so they learn more.

I don't know what we can do to help people integrate better. There's an argument to be made that people who are here legally are more likely to seek out services, such as English classes and hang out with a more diverse group of people. But it seems that people who immigrate legally also tend to separate themselves into their little groups and not integrate. So I don't know what the answer is.

[MyLittlePony 340]

Go feel sorry for the illegals as they are mooching off your taxes while our own should be taken care of first.

[BaBamSam 239]

Well, that brings me to another topic: immigrant communities. In Southern FL, we have tons of immigrant enclaves where people absolutely don't integrate and don't learn a word of English. Several of my ESL students have been here for 5, 15 and in this case, 25 years and they're still in the beginning English. This particular student (and some others) lived most of their years in the US in Miami, where Spanish is pretty much the defacto first language.

But I gotta tell you, when they get into class, they are so eager to learn English. In their intake interviews, many of them will actually request a teacher who doesn't know Spanish so they learn more.

I don't know what we can do to help people integrate better. There's an argument to be made that people who are here legally are more likely to seek out services, such as English classes and hang out with a more diverse group of people. But it seems that people who immigrate legally also tend to separate themselves into their little groups and not integrate. So I don't know what the answer is.

Do you think it could be a generational thing? It wasn't too long ago we had German and Italian neighborhoods that didn't speak English and it took a generation or two to integrate everyone. Here in LA we have a huge legal/illegal hispanic and spanish-speaking culture. From my observations, younger generations are more capable and willing to integrate.

[duraaraa 203]

Well, that brings me to another topic: immigrant communities. In Southern FL, we have tons of immigrant enclaves where people absolutely don't integrate and don't learn a word of English. Several of my ESL students have been here for 5, 15 and in this case, 25 years and they're still in the beginning English. This particular student (and some others) lived most of their years in the US in Miami, where Spanish is pretty much the defacto first language.

But I gotta tell you, when they get into class, they are so eager to learn English. In their intake interviews, many of them will actually request a teacher who doesn't know Spanish so they learn more.

I don't know what we can do to help people integrate better. There's an argument to be made that people who are here legally are more likely to seek out services, such as English classes and hang out with a more diverse group of people. But it seems that people who immigrate legally also tend to separate themselves into their little groups and not integrate. So I don't know what the answer is.

This goes both ways. I have met many, many Americans who lived in Mongolia. Many of them worked in banks. Others worked in school or universities. Guess how many could speak Mongolian...

Actually, my job is in a Japanese-language sub-community, and I'm the only non-ethnically-Japanese part of that community that I know of so far. I barely ever use English at work.

Edited April 20, 2013 by duraaraa

[SaharaSunset 165]

Not all Mexicans can just "walk across the border." Mexico's a fairly large country, you know? I can definitely see how those from Southern and Central Mexico could spend a good chunk of money just getting to a border crossing.

I teach Adult ESL classes and there's a guy who has been here for 25 years. He's spent more of my life in the US than he has in Mexico. He's never been back to Mexico. His parents died without him being there. He works full-time and has a family but attends every English class he can. How could I say someone like that doesn't deserve citizenship?

Ah yes, a heart wrenching individual story. It's is hard to argue against. However, no one prevented your friend from returning to Mexico to see his parents....simply the fact (I assume) that he is illegal. So that "torn apart from family" bit doesn't tug at my heartstrings....because in reality it was self-imposed. I prefer the story of my friend from Vietnam whose mother is dying of cancer, but as of yet, they have been unable to get a Visa to bring her to the U.S. And since airport entry is her ONLY option, she well die, far away from her only son. What are we doing for their cause? The ones trying to do it legally...but separated by vast, impassible oceans as opposed to land.

And while Mexico is a large country, I'm pretty sure the "good chunk of money" pales to those of someone from some remote central African country...hence the fact that illegal Mexicans vastly outnumber illegal Congolese. And even if I'm wrong about the cost (it may well be hugely expensive for Mexicans) - the point is, other countries don't even have the option to enter illegally.

I certainly agree people like your student shouldn't be treated as murderous criminals. But the facts are, there IS a legal system, and your student chose to disregard it. So do I think he "deserves" citizenship? No. Does this mean I hate him and I'm racist against Mexicans? No. Do I think he should go through the same process as other legal immigrants? Yes. Do I hope people like you friend/student become citizens one day? Sure. But, please don't neglect the millions of people in horrific circumstances, who, unlike your student, don't have the option to cross illegally. Don't they "deserve" the same chance at citizenship that you want for your friend?

Alas, their plight is brushed under the rug because we all know full well, were it not for the new focus on "the Latin American" vote, most Americans wouldn't care three straws about immigration reform. So, heart-wrenching stories aside, "amnesty" only applies to some, and I frankly think that's not okay. Nor do I think certain people "deserve" citizenship more than others.

[berber_wife 90]

This goes both ways. I have met many, many Americans who lived in Mongolia. Many of them worked in banks. Others worked in school or universities. Guess how many could speak Mongolian...

Excellent point. When I was a Peace Corps Volunteer, I noticed that the volunteers integrated pretty well, but the other expats (NGO workers from US and Europe) really didn't. And even among the volunteers, none of us mastered the native language people we had so many people who were willing (and sometimes even preferring) to speak English with us.

[BaBamSam 239]

Ah yes, a heart wrenching individual story. It's is hard to argue against. However, no one prevented your friend from returning to Mexico to see his parents....simply the fact (I assume) that he is illegal. So that "torn apart from family" bit doesn't tug at my heartstrings....because in reality it was self-imposed. I prefer the story of my friend from Vietnam whose mother is dying of cancer, but as of yet, they have been unable to get a Visa to bring her to the U.S. And since airport entry is her ONLY option, she well die, far away from her only son. What are we doing for their cause? The ones trying to do it legally...but separated by vast, impassible oceans as opposed to land.

And while Mexico is a large country, I'm pretty sure the "good chunk of money" pales to those of someone from some remote central African country...hence the fact that illegal Mexicans vastly outnumber illegal Congolese. And even if I'm wrong about the cost (it may well be hugely expensive for Mexicans) - the point is, other countries don't even have the option to enter illegally.

I certainly agree people like your student shouldn't be treated as murderous criminals. But the facts are, there IS a legal system, and your student chose to disregard it. So do I think he "deserves" citizenship? No. Does this mean I hate him and I'm racist against Mexicans? No. Do I think he should go through the same process as other legal immigrants? Yes. Do I hope people like you friend/student become citizens one day? Sure. But, please don't neglect the millions of people in horrific circumstances, who, unlike your student, don't have the option to cross illegally. Don't they "deserve" the same chance at citizenship that you want for your friend?

Alas, their plight is brushed under the rug because we all know full well, were it not for the new focus on "the Latin American" vote, most Americans wouldn't care three straws about immigration reform. So, heart-wrenching stories aside, "amnesty" only applies to some, and I frankly think that's not okay. Nor do I think certain people "deserve" citizenship more than others.

Your argument about geography is so unwarranted. Geography can't be changed. To argue using it is just...weak. And non-sensical. If everyone suffering can't have something, than no one suffering should have it according to your logic.

There is a legal system for Mexicans who want to come to America, yes, but how effective is it? Oh, it's not. People on lists for decades from Mexico - if they can get on the lists at all.

The only thing I've agreed with you thus far on is the voting issue - and I half-agree.

[duraaraa 203]

Excellent point. When I was a Peace Corps Volunteer, I noticed that the volunteers integrated pretty well, but the other expats (NGO workers from US and Europe) really didn't. And even among the volunteers, none of us mastered the native language people we had so many people who were willing (and sometimes even preferring) to speak English with us.

From my experience, the Americans tended to stick only to the Mongolians who spoke English. Unfortunately, that meant that they didn't get an authentic experience, didn't learn the language and culture, and felt miserably out of place. Those who really needed to use Mongolian had a translator/interpreter. Because the nature of my work was initially volunteering as well, I never had any reason to work with the richer Mongolians who were able to get a good education and learn English, so I ended up learning Mongolian. When I went back, I went to live with my fiancee, and she doesn't speak a word of English, so the second year, I got really fluent. I'm excited for my fiancee to experience going to a different place and learning a new language from scratch.

Edited April 20, 2013 by duraaraa

[SaharaSunset 165]

Well, that brings me to another topic: immigrant communities. In Southern FL, we have tons of immigrant enclaves where people absolutely don't integrate and don't learn a word of English. Several of my ESL students have been here for 5, 15 and in this case, 25 years and they're still in the beginning English. This particular student (and some others) lived most of their years in the US in Miami, where Spanish is pretty much the defacto first language.

But I gotta tell you, when they get into class, they are so eager to learn English. In their intake interviews, many of them will actually request a teacher who doesn't know Spanish so they learn more.

I don't know what we can do to help people integrate better. There's an argument to be made that people who are here legally are more likely to seek out services, such as English classes and hang out with a more diverse group of people. But it seems that people who immigrate legally also tend to separate themselves into their little groups and not integrate. So I don't know what the answer is.

I worked as a bartender at a restaurant for 6 years, and I would put in food orders for employees. There were 3 wonderful and sweet women who worked in the kitchen, and everyone morning before they left for the day, they would come order, "Pollo con fritas." Six years, and never once did I hear a lick of English out of any of them....and they were in their 30's and had been in the US since their early 20's. And frankly, I don't think they cared much about learning English because they got by fine without it. Which is fine. I don't know is English mastery alone should be foundation for why someone should be given citizenship. I also disagree that illegal immigrants assimilate more.

Over here in the west that's not the case AT ALL. I'm not sure what you base that argument on, but I think its more a matter of age of arrival than anything. America these days, is a funny mix of country pride and desperate clinging to heritage and culture. And frankly I thinks thats part of our challenge right now. Contrary to what people love to claim, America was not founded on clinging to one home country, both language and culture. The swell of immigrants in the 1800's & 1900's tried everything possible to "become" American. They even rejected the spelling of their names in an effort to assimilate. So anyone who thinks America was founded on embracing our differences, is looking at the past with modern eyes, and misunderstands history.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

I worked as a bartender at a restaurant for 6 years, and I would put in food orders for employees. There were 3 wonderful and sweet women who worked in the kitchen, and everyone morning before they left for the day, they would come order, "Pollo con fritas." Six years, and never once did I hear a lick of English out of any of them....and they were in their 30's and had been in the US since their early 20's. And frankly, I don't think they cared much about learning English because they got by fine without it. Which is fine. I don't know is English mastery alone should be foundation for why someone should be given citizenship. I also disagree that illegal immigrants assimilate more.

Over here in the west that's not the case AT ALL. I'm not sure what you base that argument on, but I think its more a matter of age of arrival than anything. America these days, is a funny mix of country pride and desperate clinging to heritage and culture. And frankly I thinks thats part of our challenge right now. Contrary to what people love to claim, America was not founded on clinging to one home country, both language and culture. The swell of immigrants in the 1800's & 1900's tried everything possible to "become" American. They even rejected the spelling of their names in an effort to assimilate. So anyone who thinks America was founded on embracing our differences, is looking at the past with modern eyes, and misunderstands history.

Quite true.

[duraaraa 203]

Quite true.

I very much admire those people for their dynamism.

[SaharaSunset 165]

Your argument about geography is so unwarranted. Geography can't be changed. To argue using it is just...weak. And non-sensical. If everyone suffering can't have something, than no one suffering should have it according to your logic.

There is a legal system for Mexicans who want to come to America, yes, but how effective is it? Oh, it's not. People on lists for decades from Mexico - if they can get on the lists at all.

The only thing I've agreed with you thus far on is the voting issue - and I half-agree.

I actually never said anything about voting - but thanks for agreeing with me

Edited April 20, 2013 by SaharaSunset

[BaBamSam 239]

A - I agree that our current immigration system is not functioning well for many people, from many countries. Not just Mexico.

B - I actually never said anything about voting - but thanks for agreeing with me

C - If you go back and look at the context of the argument I was making, you might see that I was extending the irrationality of wanting "amnesty for all" and "open borders" by highlighting the illogical flaws in an already illogical argument...so I guess according to that logic, congrats on picking up on the illogical nature of the argument

A. I'd be surprised if you were on this site and didn't.

B. You mentioned wanting the "Latin American vote", which relates to voting. And I agree that is driving the political reform.

C. I've been following this thread, so I'm aware of your argument and had elected not to comment on the illogical jump you made earlier, but then it continued. I don't think that the initial argument you commented on was illogical. Impractical and idealogical, yes, but not illogical.