Obamacare was compared to a “huge train wreck”

[erynaught 43]

http://www.workplacebullying.org/2013/01/25/le/

If you're rich, you can afford the best healthcare. The richest Americans live to be 79.2 years old on average, the poorest live to be 74.7. Sounds pretty good, eh?

Now let's look at Cuba. It's a 'poor' country, isn't it? The life expectancy, on average, is higher than the U.S., and nearly as high as the wealthiest in the U.S. (78.5).

What do you reckon the difference is?

Let's look at Iceland. Universal health care, 81.2 year-old life expectancy. There are barely any Japanese without health insurance, because it's a law that everyone must have it. Smoking rates in Japan are much, much higher than in the U.S., and yet, somehow, they live to be 82.7 years old on average.

Canada? 80.5 years.

I don't know enough about Obama care to know if it's any good or not, but we need medical aid to be accessible to everyone for free. That should be a basic right.

There's no reason doctors need to make so much money, in my opinion. Those who become doctors should be motivated by helping people, not by raking in hundreds of thousands per year. If education is supplied by the government, healthcare should also be.

Healthcare is supplied by the government. Think medicare/medicaid/veteran's benefits/state programs subsidized in part by federal dollars/etc.

You've a lot to learn if you think that healthcare (or any other service, be it public or private) is free; there is no such thing as free healthcare. You will pay for it one way or another. Tax rates in the countries you mentioned are all very significantly higher than the US (personal and corporate taxes).

And limiting earning potential of people is encroaching on their freedoms and simply not fair. I am self-employed and am happy with my income - should I be held to some maximum income determined by some governing body? Who decides? I actually got into my line of work because it is interesting and affords me opportunities and a schedule I desire; the income is a nice perk, but not my motivation as I'd be able to manage with less.

Besides, the majority of medical doctors (MDs and DOs) in this country do not earn hundreds of thousands of dollars. Some do, but not the majority.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

You've a lot to learn if you think that healthcare (or any other service, be it public or private) is free; there is no such thing as free healthcare. You will pay for it one way or another. Tax rates in the countries you mentioned are all very significantly higher than the US (personal and corporate taxes).

And here we're told over and over again that corporate taxes among our peers are the highest in the US. Are you saying that's bunk? Never mind, off topic.

It may be true that taxation is higher in other industrialized nations but that is NOT on the account of health care cost. No other country spends as much per capita on health care as the US. We're way, way up there. All the health care systems in the developed world are far more efficient (both lower cost and better overall outcomes) than ours. The solely profit oriented health care system we are burdened with will soon enough tank our entire economy.

[erynaught 43]

Now let's look at Cuba. It's a 'poor' country, isn't it? The life expectancy, on average, is higher than the U.S., and nearly as high as the wealthiest in the U.S. (78.5).

Cuba is an interesting choice. I agree that Cuba has good national healthcare. Cuba also exports many physicians and health services (as a money making enterprise of the goverment, incidentically), though sponsoring countries are not always happy with this because the Cubans work for substantially less than market rates.

However, considering that it is against the law in Cuba to publicly criticize the national health care system and that we do not have verifiable information on the true cost of national health care (at what expense to other social programs/infrastructure), I don't really put much weight in the information which is available.

Personally, I think the US government has been acting like a spoiled baby for years when it comes to relations with Cuba and relations really should be normalized, but I'd still opt for obtaining my health care here in the US than travelling to Cuba even if I was allowed to.

[erynaught 43]

It may be true that taxation is higher in other industrialized nations but that is NOT on the account of health care cost. No other country spends as much per capita on health care as the US. We're way, way up there. All the health care systems in the developed world are far more efficient (both lower cost and better overall outcomes) than ours. The solely profit oriented health care system we are burdened with will soon enough tank our entire economy.

Very true, US health care costs are much higher. And higher taxes in other industrialized nations are not soley a result of the cost of national health care, but it is part of the equation. To say that it is NOT is uninformed and misleading.

Health care costs in the US are driven by the free market, like most everything else. The reality is that the majority of Americans have health care that they can affortd - maybe don't like the cost, but can still afford it. Sure, I'd like to pay less, but I can still pay my bills. I don't like $4 per gallon gasoline either, but it hasn't gotten so expensive that I need to adjust my driving habits significantly. Health care isn't going to cause our economy to tank; quite the opposite, health care continues to pump money into our economy. What will happen is that the cost of healthcare will shift - from the employer to the employee - maybe more to the government. Real reform should make things simpler and streamlined; take away the ridiculous punative damages for malpractice (of course, that would not make the lawyers very happy); find a way for people to take ownership of their own health and encourage a healthier population.

[duraaraa 203]

I'm not suggesting that I have a solution to the problem. I'm simply pointing out that the U.S. does not have its act together.

Mongolia is a developing country, and people do not have high salaries, including myself when I was there. My future stepson got a really bad cavity, and I was worried it would wipe out all of my savings. We went to the dentist... I was worried.

It turned out that it cost $5 to have the cavity drilled, antibiotics given, and the cavity filled a week later for another $3. All of the dental supplies seemed to be imported from China. I was so amazed, though... they did a very professional job, and his tooth is fine now. We didn't have any kind of insurance.

Upon going back to the U.S., I went to a dentist because I had a toothache. I was told that doing essentially the same thing that my future stepson had to do would be over $1000. I laughed, left, and dealt with tooth pain since.

If a system that people depend on to stay alive is based on profits, something is terribly, terribly wrong.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Very true, US health care costs are much higher. And higher taxes in other industrialized nations are not soley a result of the cost of national health care, but it is part of the equation. To say that it is NOT is uninformed and misleading.

It's a much smaller part of the equation than it is here, though. Remember that most industrialized countries fund their health care systems with premiums rather than taxes. Either way, the bite out of your pay is necessarily less if health care costs overall are less than half of what they are here.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

find a way for people to take ownership of their own health and encourage a healthier population.

They don't do that elsewhere either and still pay less than half per capita than we do. Health care systems elsewhere are focused on delivering effective health care to the population. Here, the heath care system is focused on the bottom lines of the medical industrial complex.

[duraaraa 203]

They don't do that elsewhere either and still pay less than half per capita than we do. Health care systems elsewhere are focused on delivering effective health care to the population. Here, the heath care system is focused on the bottom lines of the medical industrial complex.

[erynaught 43]

If a system that people depend on to stay alive is based on profits, something is terribly, terribly wrong.

It's called Capitalism and it is the system we have, for better or for worse. It's just as valid as socialism or any other economic system.

I understand the dental frustration. I don't have dental insurance because the costs of the premiums for me outweigh the costs of routine care - until most of my teeth and my kid's teeth start falling out, the odds are in my favor. I negotiate dental services - some dentists will and some won't. A routine cavity should cost you about $250 out-of-pocket in most metro areas, less in rural areas. I needed a crown a couple of years ago - I had the root canal done here because the pain was intolerable, but had the crown installed in Thailand when I went home with my wife for a family visit. I think they call that Health Tourism - I call it free market economics on a global basis.

[erynaught 43]

They don't do that elsewhere either and still pay less than half per capita than we do. Health care systems elsewhere are focused on delivering effective health care to the population. Here, the heath care system is focused on the bottom lines of the medical industrial complex.

In Canada, wait times for healthcare are a significant issue, so I'm not sure how that would be considered an effective delivery of health care to the population.

Regardless of what other countries do, a better healthier population and a population that takes an active role in managing their health care dollars will lead to a reduction in health care costs. I have a friend who has company-sponsored health insurance and they get a rebate on their premiums for participating in preventative health programs, smoking cessation, maintaining healthy weight, etc. From what I understand, most employees and their dependents participate in this program.

[duraaraa 203]

It's called Capitalism and it is the system we have, for better or for worse. It's just as valid as socialism or any other economic system.

I understand the dental frustration. I don't have dental insurance because the costs of the premiums for me outweigh the costs of routine care - until most of my teeth and my kid's teeth start falling out, the odds are in my favor. I negotiate dental services - some dentists will and some won't. A routine cavity should cost you about $250 out-of-pocket in most metro areas, less in rural areas. I needed a crown a couple of years ago - I had the root canal done here because the pain was intolerable, but had the crown installed in Thailand when I went home with my wife for a family visit. I think they call that Health Tourism - I call it free market economics on a global basis.

I have a really good dental plan now, and I'm still waiting until I go to Mongolia to do anything about my teeth.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

In Canada, wait times for healthcare are a significant issue, so I'm not sure how that would be considered an effective delivery of health care to the population.

You look at health care outcomes. Canada fares no worse than the US but at a much lower cost. Same results at half the cost means double the efficiency. It's not hard.

It's called Capitalism and it is the system we have, for better or for worse.

They have capitalism elsewhere in the developed world and yet they manage not to get ripped off by the medical industrial complex.

[erynaught 43]

You look at health care outcomes. Canada fares no worse than the US but at a much lower cost. Same results at half the cost means double the efficiency. It's not hard.

Not hard to consider quality of service either. I only know from experience that access to healthcare in Canada often involves lengthy wait times. These wait times disappear with private payor insurance, which is also available. Outcomes only measure treatment provided - if you're waiting for treatment, your not included in the algorithm. Leads to a very skewed view.

They have capitalism elsewhere in the developed world and yet they manage not to get ripped off by the medical industrial complex.

Yeah, you're right. Most of the developed world have Capitalist economies, but nationalized social systems. In the US, the concept of free market economics is also applied to much of the social infrastructure. I'm not arguing that health care in the US is a bed of roses or the best solution. However, I'm not being ripped off by my health care costs. My health care costs are quite manageable. If cost is a concern, I can find low cost. If speed and/or convenience is important, I can make that choice too.

I have found that many people in the US don't really know how to manage their health care costs - they want to go to a doctor and get their issue resolved and their only concept of the cost is their co-pay and deductible, the amount of money that actually comes out of their pocket, which does not reflect real costs. And because rates are negotiated the way they are, it is damned near impossible to know the real costs of a procedure or office visit. Only in the past decade or so with companies shifting the burden of costs to the employee (ie, increased co-pays and deductibles) do I find people asking more questions and being better informed with how the costs of their health care.

[decocker 7,198]

However, I'm not being ripped off by my health care costs. My health care costs are quite manageable. If cost is a concern, I can find low cost. If speed and/or convenience is important, I can make that choice too.

wow. how rich are you!?

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Not hard to consider quality of service either. I only know from experience that access to healthcare in Canada often involves lengthy wait times. These wait times disappear with private payor insurance, which is also available. Outcomes only measure treatment provided - if you're waiting for treatment, your not included in the algorithm. Leads to a very skewed view.

I have yet to hear my peeps in Canada complain about their health care.

Yeah, you're right. Most of the developed world have Capitalist economies, but nationalized social systems.

So do we. We've got nationalized social systems for kids, the elderly, the poor and veterans. For everyone else, we settled on a free market based system that has yet to deliver on it's promise of greater efficiency. It hasn't delivered and it never will. Fact is that the free market health care system is killing our entire economy. It's already hogging almost a fifth of our economy and it'll only get worse. The economy is not going to bear a health care system that sucks 25% or more out of it. That's where we're headed. And fast. I'd rather avoid that crash that's coming.

I have found that many people in the US don't really know how to manage their health care costs - they want to go to a doctor and get their issue resolved and their only concept of the cost is their co-pay and deductible, the amount of money that actually comes out of their pocket, which does not reflect real costs. And because rates are negotiated the way they are, it is damned near impossible to know the real costs of a procedure or office visit. Only in the past decade or so with companies shifting the burden of costs to the employee (ie, increased co-pays and deductibles) do I find people asking more questions and being better informed with how the costs of their health care.

The giant costs are usually incurred where you are in no position to shop around. When you're in the ER following a stroke or heart attack or serious injury from an accident, you don't ask questions. And that is true whether your co-pays or deductibles are low or high. Now, the concept of price awareness does work with HDHPs in your everyday setting. I know that because I switched to one of those a few years back and yes, I do ask more questions regarding the cost of a treatment, test or prescription because I have more skin in the game. But when you're rolled into the ER, all this goes out the window. And that is where the bills get fat. Both for the individual as well as for the health care system overall.