Obamacare was compared to a “huge train wreck”

[Póg mo 1,749]

What will happen is that the cost of healthcare will shift - from the employer to the employee - maybe more to the government.

Swings and roundabouts my friend. You have to be seriously naive to believe that employers who provide health insurance for their workers only come out of their personal finances and workers remuneration or tax deductions don't pay large part in how insurance is paid for.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Swings and roundabouts my friend. You have to be seriously naive to believe that employers who provide health insurance for their workers only come out of their personal finances and workers remuneration or tax deductions don't pay large part in how insurance is paid for.

That's exactly right. Workers earn their health care coverage. It's not like a gift from the employer.

[Póg mo 1,749]

You've a lot to learn if you think that healthcare (or any other service, be it public or private) is free; there is no such thing as free healthcare. You will pay for it one way or another. Tax rates in the countries you mentioned are all very significantly higher than the US (personal and corporate taxes).

Sure, most people understand why they pay taxes and why spending more on combined healthcare and taxes isn't really a good plan.

[erynaught 43]

wow. how rich are you!?

In terms of life experience, quality of life, family, friends - extraordinarily rich I believe.

In terms of income, solid upper middle class. Some do better. Some do worse. Normal home, drive a 10yr old car, shop at Wal Mart and other discount stores, nothing special.

[erynaught 43]

Swings and roundabouts my friend. You have to be seriously naive to believe that employers who provide health insurance for their workers only come out of their personal finances and workers remuneration or tax deductions don't pay large part in how insurance is paid for.

Yes, of course, employer provided health insurance is incorporated into the overall renumeration of the employee. But if you've been around for any length of time you'd recognize that employers paid a higher percentage of premiums than they do now. Same with increasing deductibles - put the onus on the employee to better manage costs.

My dad was a member of a union and health care costs were fully paid for by the union at one time. Near the end of his life his 'share' of the premiums had increased at a much larger rate than his salary, so in effect his total renumeration was lower. Happens in the public sector too. I am on the school board of my local community and I hear the stories from the old timers about the fights they had with the teachers union a decade ago about increasing the teacher-paid portion of the premium from 1% to 10%, which is still well below the national average for such contributions.

[erynaught 43]

That's exactly right. Workers earn their health care coverage. It's not like a gift from the employer.

Never said it was. But most employers do pay a portion of the premium. And some sectors of the economy traditionally offer better health plans at better cost incentives. Some employers offer nothing, or perhaps other benefits that are more attractive to potential employees. I worked for one company early on in my career that paid 100% of health care - no premium contribution, no copay, no deductible - nothing. But this company also offered no other benefit other than a group Costco card which we had to reserve to make sure it was available to use. No pension/401(k). No tuition reimbursement. No tax-free child care money. No assistance with parking or public transporation. No legal assistance. No dental insurance. Just health care.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Yes, of course, employer provided health insurance is incorporated into the overall renumeration of the employee. But if you've been around for any length of time you'd recognize that employers paid a higher percentage of premiums than they do now. Same with increasing deductibles - put the onus on the employee to better manage costs.

Actually, that's not the primary motivation. What happened is that over the last several decades health insurance premiums have risen much faster than compensation could rise. Thus, the premium increases had to be mostly absorbed by employees. Employers have scaled back on coverage to keep premiums from rising too fast. And added lower cost insurance products (HMOs and HDHPs) to the offering to provide employees (and themselves) a relief valve. Make no mistake, the increasing burden on employees is due to the insane growth of health care cost that we have the free market system allowed to burden us with. That employees are now often left with insurance plans that force them to manage their health care cost better is a result of that rather than the driver.

[Darnell 8,479]

bak to post #1.

I think it's great that a Union of Roofers is showing up and letting everyone know they are NOT supporting this stuff.

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

The problem with Obama-care (stupid name but we seem to be stuck with it) is that it was all compromise.. If we are going to go all socialized medicine then we should just do it. the new compromise does nothing for the vast majority other than raise the cost for the same coverage. The added benefits do not make up for the added costs.

I blame the Democrats for this - they had control of both houses and the presidency and they let the Republicans spook them into a compromise. Cowards.. They went for a political win instead of following what they say they believed in. I think if the President had to do it over he would do it differently and not back down in face some AARP members spooked by the right.. The Senate would have left him hanging anyway.

Please lets not pretend this is any meaningful progress.. we need to sh*t or get off the socialized medicine pot.

I'd like to do it just to see what the rest of the world does when their new medicines are no longer subsidized for them.

Edited April 22, 2013 by OnMyWayID

[Darnell 8,479]

partisan ####### has no place in socialized medicine. Ever

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

partisan ####### has no place in socialized medicine. Ever

Sadly many of us her only know how to push an agenda - thinking outside those confines has become a foreign concept.