Muslim Women Shockingly Not Grateful for Topless European Ladies Trying To 'Save' Them

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Believe it or don't tinfoil man. That view reflects the view of the average person.

It's an idiotic view to have. Sorry but it is.

As a society they are otherwise better off in a lot of ways than we are. Who are the bright ones then?

There are ups and downs everywhere. But a society that treats adults like children just because they happen to have been born without a ####### is not better off than we are.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Nor can I believe you really just pulled the "FEMEN has Asian friends so they can't be racist" card. Ugh.

I did not pull any card at all. I merely pointed out that FEMEN has members all over the world and that it has members of all colors, races, etc. What exactly makes you say that they are a racist organization?

[sandinista! 1,816]

http://www.npr.org/2013/04/05/175695515/in-somalia-mother-and-daughter-are-keeping-hope-alive

This.

This is how real women make the world a better place. Notice neither this woman nor her daughter engaged in any ethno racial mockups, nor does she go around calling anyone stupid or a slave or brainwashed when they disagreed with her.

"Because Abdi's camp took in refugees from clans that were at war with one another, Abdi kept the feuds at bay by forbidding any sort of clan allegiance.

-

"Necessity is mother of invention," Abdi says. "So when they come, we were informing them, if you use the clan division, or you say 'I am that clan,' you cannot stay here. You will be Somali. And you will see, we will welcome you." And, she says, the people she took in began to see how destructive those divisions were."

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

http://www.npr.org/2013/04/05/175695515/in-somalia-mother-and-daughter-are-keeping-hope-alive

This.

This is how real women make the world a better place. Notice neither this woman nor her daughter engaged in any ethno racial mockups, nor does she go around calling anyone stupid or a slave or brainwashed when they disagreed with her.

"Because Abdi's camp took in refugees from clans that were at war with one another, Abdi kept the feuds at bay by forbidding any sort of clan allegiance.

-

"Necessity is mother of invention," Abdi says. "So when they come, we were informing them, if you use the clan division, or you say 'I am that clan,' you cannot stay here. You will be Somali. And you will see, we will welcome you." And, she says, the people she took in began to see how destructive those divisions were."

Because of this you call FEMEN racist? You sure stretch well...

[sandinista! 1,816]

No, that article had nothing to do with femen, it was about sincere dedication to human rights and sincere effort to help people in misery. Concepts they're largely unfamiliar with.

What i said was, some members of the group, the ones being race baiting, put on ethno costumery and that was an extremely crappy thing to do. Like showing up at a protest for women's rights in Mexico wearing a striped poncho and sombrero and carrying around a stuffed burro. Stupid, pointless, and ultimately demeaning, even to the people they say they're protesting in support of.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

That was extra input. The rules there have nothing to do with road rage. I'm qualified LOL. Still have a valid Saudi license.

I think the harsh implantation of Sharia law is more about keeping the King in power than it is about Islam.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

What i said was, some members of the group, the ones being race baiting, put on ethno costumery and that was an extremely crappy thing to do. Like showing up at a protest for women's rights in Mexico wearing a striped poncho and sombrero and carrying around a stuffed burro. Stupid, pointless, and ultimately demeaning, even to the people they say they're protesting in support of.

I still don't see any race baiting. What I do see is some getting their panties in a wad over nothing.

[sandinista! 1,816]

Femen's obsession with nudity feeds a racist colonial feminism

International solidarity should take its cue from the women affected, not try to impose values on communities

Chitra Nagarajan

guardian.co.uk, Thursday 11 April 2013 09.14 EDT

Another week, another heated debate over the tactics and language used by the feminist protest group Femen, which last Thursday launched an International Topless Jihad Day. The group, started in Ukraine, uses topless protest as a way to raise the profile of women's rights. The day of action was called in response to threats received by a Tunisian Femen activist, Amina Tyler, for posting topless pictures of herself on Facebook.

With slogans such as "nudity is freedom" and statements such as "topless protests are the battle flags of women's resistance, a symbol of a woman's acquisition of rights over her own body", Femen claims the removal of clothes in public as the key indicator of the realisation of women's rights and the most effective type of activism. Everything else is seen as not radical enough and failing anyway. By these standards, countries in north Africa and the Middle East and communities from those countries living in Europe are seen to be falling far short.

It argues that it is "transforming female sexual subordination into aggression, and thereby starting the real war" by "bare breasts alone". Using your naked body can be a legitimate form of a protest of last resort – there is a long history of using naked protest and the threat of it outside Europe. However, the way it has been used by Femen feeds into and reinforces a racist and orientalist discourse about the women and men of north Africa and the Middle East. With statements such as "as a society, we haven't been able to eradicate our Arab mentality towards women", Femen positions women of the region as veiled and oppressed by their men as opposed to the enlightened and liberated women of the west who live in a developed and superior society where they have the "freedom" to remove their clothes.

We know this is not true. Black women (and I'm using black as a political term to denote shared and continued experiences of racism and colonisation) are not all (and only) oppressed and black men are not all oppressors. Women in Europe, the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand do not live in a feminist utopia. There continue to be active and vibrant women's rights movements in Asia, Africa and Latin America. The feminist story belongs to all women, everywhere.

Femen's actions also come at a time of intensifying international backlash against women's rights that is increasingly being framed, perpetuated and accepted by male elites as rooted in "the west" and imposed on other countries in a form of cultural imperialism. Unfortunately, statements from white French women saying things like "better naked than the burqa" feed this narrative and are more likely to damage rather than support the struggles of the women they call their sisters.

Its defenders may say that Femen means well but having good intentions is far from enough. There is a long and problematic history of colonial feminism and the "good intentions" of outsiders using racialised notions to "save women over there". This actively causes harm, including when communities react to this by holding on to static notions of "culture" and "tradition" in the face of outside challenge as a way to resist colonialism and racism. Women's rights becomes the battleground with feminists from these communities and countries often left in a double bind, stuck between trying to reject racist ideas of black men and communities and challenging their attitudes.

We need a politics of international feminist solidarity that integrates a gender, race and post-colonial power analysis and takes its cue from the women affected and those who are already challenging gender inequality. As I have argued elsewhere, a more holistic and nuanced approach would consider how patriarchy combines with racism, neo-colonialism and global capitalism to create a fundamentally unjust world. We need to think about how our decisions, from where we shop to the issues about which we remain silent, affect the lives of women and girls in other countries.

Femen has continued to be unapologetic about its tactics and language and refused to address its blatant racism. When you are criticised by those "for" whom you are meant to be working, the response should be to think critically on your actions. Its latest piece offers no self-reflection or attempt to acknowledge criticism from women's rights activists from the region, only self-aggrandisement. To paraphrase Gayatri Spivak, white women will not save black women from black men. The role of feminists from outside should be to support the work of the women in the communities concerned, not add to the problem. International feminist solidarity is crucial but this is not the way to do it. A true ally does not use racism to attempt to defeat patriarchy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/11/femen-nudity-racist-colonial-feminism

[sandinista! 1,816]

Prior, stupid, not helpful stunts.

That's not what a feminist looks like

THURSDAY, 09 AUGUST 2012 12:03 WRITTEN BY ELLY BADCOCK

0 Comments

412590810 

Activists calling for Sharia countries to be banned from the Olympics are doing internationalist feminism a disservice, argues Elly Badcock

A FEMEN activist is detained near Tower Bridge

French activists last week staged a protest on Tower Bridge, calling for countries that uphold Sharia law to be banned from the Olympics.

Most of us, on reading the above, would assume the protest was staged by the repellent racists of the Front Nationale, or groups even further to the right. However, in a shocking insight into how far subtle anti-Islamic rhetoric has penetrated the left in France, it was feminist group FEMEN rolling out the banner.

FEMEN have a history of 'shock-factor' protests; a cursory Google search will show them naked and body-painted at protests across the globe.

It's a tactic which has always been questionable, to say the least. Of course, the female body is nothing to be ashamed of – and the argument that if men can saunter around topless, women should be able to as well, is eminently sensible. Breasts are not distasteful – but in this context, the tactic is misplaced. The ideological statement the action ends up reinforcing is this – that showing your breasts is inherently liberating, and covering up is a necessary signifier of sexist oppression. Women's liberation cannot be reduced to measuring the amount of flesh we're permitted to show.

What is particularly negative is that the protest buys into the rhetoric, pushed by imperialists, that Islam is uniquely oppressive to women.

In Britain, the conviction rate for rape is 6%, cuts to child benefit mean many mothers skip a meal a day to feed their children, Sure Start centres are disappearing and women occupy the majority of low-paid work. In America, prohibitive healthcare costs mean women find it hard to access both contraception and abortions. And in FEMEN's own France, the government has made it illegal for women who wear the niqab to leave their house in the dress of their choice.

Why does FEMEN think these countries are worthy of their place in the Olympics? The answer can only be found with reference to the traumatic intersection between sexism, imperialism and Islamophobia.

The War on Terror – in Afghanistan, in particular – was justified in the name of protecting women's rights. Of course, society in Afghanistan is riddled with institutional sexism – as every country in the world is, North and South, East and West. What is notable is that, in order to gee up support for an intervention, American and British governments had to paint a picture of serenity and equality at home. They had to convince not only their supporters, but a sizeable proportion of the liberal West, that 'their' sexism abroad was worse than 'our' sexism in the West. That a country which only made rape within marriage illegal in the early 90s is somehow in a privileged moral position. Judging by the politics of groups like FEMEN, they have done well.

The fact is, Muslims are being vilified at home and abroad. As ever, a huge share of the burden is placed on women; on their dress and the way they bring up their children. Any decent feminist would recognise Muslim women bear a double burden of racism and sexism, and turn their focus towards supporting their struggle. They might, as a starting point, campaign against the increasing militarisation of East London, making it harder for Muslims to walk the streets without harassment. They might join Muslim women in asserting the right to wear hijab or niqab without fear of attack. Interestingly, activists in the Revolutionary Association of Women in Afghanistan (RAWA) have mentioned that the burqa can sometimes make it easier for them to carry out political activity, as it can disguise political leaflets and hidden cameras. FEMEN could listen to these women, the women they are patronisingly attempting to 'save'.

Instead, they reinforce a logic that permits imperialist governments to launch wars which often end up making life harder for women. In Afghanistan, the American-backed President Karzai introduced a law legalising rape within marriage. And of course, a huge proportion of the civilians killed were women – the danger and instability communities face in wartime make it the worst possible condition in which to fight for true liberation.

We could ignore this, fetishise the freedom to show skin, and get our tits out on the bridge with FEMEN. Or we could build a women's movement that opposes both conservative moralism and state-sanctioned Islamophobia, and show liberal feminists the true meaning of sisterhood. The choice lies with us.

http://www.counterfire.org/index.php/articles/78-womens-liberation/15951-femen-protest-sharia-law-tower-bridge

[james&olya 1,121]

I wonder if male Areola would count..

What really wonder if , native nudity would be ok. You know like on TVthey can show full frontal native nudity, but can't show nipple.

I wonder if you post some Nat Geo nudtiy it would get nuked.

If I understand Africans running naked in a river is ok by US standards. Europeans nude on a beach is pornographic.

Racism + sexism!

[james&olya 1,121]

It's a tactic which has always been questionable, to say the least. Of course, the female body is nothing to be ashamed of – and the argument that if men can saunter around topless, women should be able to as well, is eminently sensible. Breasts are not distasteful – but in this context, the tactic is misplaced. The ideological statement the action ends up reinforcing is this – that showing your breasts is inherently liberating, and covering up is a necessary signifier of sexist oppression. Women's liberation cannot be reduced to measuring the amount of flesh we're permitted to show.

CHOOSING to cover up is modesty and is good. Feeling societal pressure or legal repercussions for having to cover-up a part of your body because of your gender IS sexist oppression. I understand women from all races, nationalities, and religions being offended by Femen. But I also understand men from all races, nationalities, and religions enjoying the show. And in the process these men in decision making positions in our largely patriarchal world are exposed, at least briefly, to the slogans and issues Femen wishes to raise. It really is not all that difficult to understand, is it?

[james&olya 1,121]

Activists calling for Sharia countries to be banned from the Olympics are doing internationalist feminism a disservice, argues Elly Badcock

French activists last week staged a protest on Tower Bridge, calling for countries that uphold Sharia law to be banned from the Olympics.

What is particularly negative is that the protest buys into the rhetoric, pushed by imperialists, that Islam is uniquely oppressive to women.

Why does FEMEN think these countries are worthy of their place in the Olympics? The answer can only be found with reference to the traumatic intersection between sexism, imperialism and Islamophobia.

The War on Terror – in Afghanistan, in particular – was justified in the name of protecting women's rights. Of course, society in Afghanistan is riddled with institutional sexism – as every country in the world is, North and South, East and West. What is notable is that, in order to gee up support for an intervention, American and British governments had to paint a picture of serenity and equality at home. They had to convince not only their supporters, but a sizeable proportion of the liberal West, that 'their' sexism abroad was worse than 'our' sexism in the West. That a country which only made rape within marriage illegal in the early 90s is somehow in a privileged moral position. Judging by the politics of groups like FEMEN, they have done well.

The fact is, Muslims are being vilified at home and abroad. As ever, a huge share of the burden is placed on women; on their dress and the way they bring up their children. Any decent feminist would recognise Muslim women bear a double burden of racism and sexism, and turn their focus towards supporting their struggle. They might, as a starting point, campaign against the increasing militarisation of East London, making it harder for Muslims to walk the streets without harassment. They might join Muslim women in asserting the right to wear hijab or niqab without fear of attack. Interestingly, activists in the Revolutionary Association of Women in Afghanistan (RAWA) have mentioned that the burqa can sometimes make it easier for them to carry out political activity, as it can disguise political leaflets and hidden cameras. FEMEN could listen to these women, the women they are patronisingly attempting to 'save'.

Instead, they reinforce a logic that permits imperialist governments to launch wars which often end up making life harder for women. In Afghanistan, the American-backed President Karzai introduced a law legalising rape within marriage. And of course, a huge proportion of the civilians killed were women – the danger and instability communities face in wartime make it the worst possible condition in which to fight for true liberation.

We could ignore this, fetishise the freedom to show skin, and get our tits out on the bridge with FEMEN. Or we could build a women's movement that opposes both conservative moralism and state-sanctioned Islamophobia, and show liberal feminists the true meaning of sisterhood. The choice lies with us.

http://www.counterfire.org/index.php/articles/78-womens-liberation/15951-femen-protest-sharia-law-tower-bridge

Nobody I know on here argues that western governments are not now and never have been sexist. And few people I know on here argue that Islam is totally unconcerned with women's rights. It is all a matter of degree. Whether you like to acknowledge it or not, Islam today is not percieved, and justifiably so, by most people, to be as far advanced in most countries as Christianity is on issues of women's rights. And neither are as advanced as is that of the often reviled 'secular humanism'! I hope you are also directing your energies and arguments internally within your chosen religion as that is really the only way change occurs. Those of us on the outside have far less influence than those of you inside. Islamophobia exists. But don't accuse those who recognize the real problems within Islam as being Islamophobic. Similar situations involving individuals in positions of power making hypocritical decisions have sometimes been referenced as 'the emperor has no clothes!' Perhaps here some might suggest that Islam's defenders and apologists also have no clothes!

[sara..... 371]

Yes, I do that every day. That country is the USA. There's plenty of road rage to go around here. Anyway, are you seriously suggesting that the driving prohibition imposed on females in Saudi Arabia (there's no law to that effect, by the way) is to protect them from male road rage? Is that your argument here?

its not really an argument from my side....but from what i have seen road rage here in the USA is nothing compared to over seas.....and im sure that a lot of the reasoning behind the refusal to allow women drivers is more than what i have stated.....i dont drive by my own choice so im probably the last person that should give an opinion on it....to me it makes logical sense

[james&olya 1,121]

its not really an argument from my side....but from what i have seen road rage here in the USA is nothing compared to over seas.....and im sure that a lot of the reasoning behind the refusal to allow women drivers is more than what i have stated.....i dont drive by my own choice so im probably the last person that should give an opinion on it....to me it makes logical sense

There is no doubt that macho attitudes and 'testosterone poisoning' contributes to road rage in some individuals and perhaps generally in some cultures. But wouldn't that argue in favor of more women, rather than less, operating the motor vehicles out there? As a male perhaps I have not seen it from your perspective, but what I have observed is that aggressive males are most aggressive towards other males and substantially less so towards women.

[sara..... 371]

There is no doubt that macho attitudes and 'testosterone poisoning' contributes to road rage in some individuals and perhaps generally in some cultures. But wouldn't that argue in favor of more women, rather than less, operating the motor vehicles out there? As a male perhaps I have not seen it from your perspective, but what I have observed is that aggressive males are most aggressive towards other males and substantially less so towards women.

you make a good point.......but add all that into some unwritten law that women cant drive....nope sorry would not want to be in the middle of that