Muslim Women Shockingly Not Grateful for Topless European Ladies Trying To 'Save' Them

[GandD 5,966]

Not getting into Religion or Politics

I can attest it is a absolute wonderful feeling to cover my personal assets and still radiate confidence. There is no need to "show off" in order to have notice of others. I dress respectfully for myself, then out of respect for my husband.

I feel even more beautiful under the modest clothes knowing only my husband has knowledge of what God has gifted us with.

Many posts back it was touched upon of how one member is proud to dress modest and I reiterate that feeling. There are beautiful ways to dress as a woman without baring too much, Maxi dresses are extremely feminine yet still cover. Still have a flare.

Also It is a good example to ones own children in this country. The revealing clothes the younger girls wear out in public/to school oversteps many boundaries now a days....not just Islam.

That's cool. All your right to think and do.

It remains a woman's choice to cover.

In some places. Hopefully all places eventually.

About S.A., I am told, it has more to do with the type of government law NOT Islam when it comes to the rights of women to drive.

Yeah. I disagree with S.A. government's policy towards this.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

There isn't. Because Muslim women are a diverse group, there are many different points of view among Muslim women. You presented certain points of view held by some - maybe even most - Muslim women. That does not mean, however, that this point of view represents what ALL Muslim women think. The point of view these Muslim women offer is as valid as any other point of view that other Muslim women may have on the issue.

Um what ??? Where did I say that every single Muslim woman thinks exactly the same ?????

You are welcome to post some articles by Muslim women who agree with topless protests - they do exist.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Um what ??? Where did I say that every single Muslim woman thinks exactly the same ?????

You are welcome to post some articles by Muslim women who agree with topless protests - they do exist.

What's the issue then? FEMEN has people offended all over the globe. Muslim or not, female or not. So some Muslim women are offended. Some western women are offended. Some men are offended. So what?

[chaine1 116]

Muslim women are a diverse group,

Yes, much like USA women.

While I taught in Kuwait, many of my Kuwaiti/Arabic girl students, at the ages of 16-17, already had far, far more opportunities than I ever had at that age. Many (along with their families) travel the world at every opportunity, have the internal drive to make 4.0s, and many will/went on to some the USA’s best universities – places like Cornell, Princeton, etc. And yet they were still down to earth and the most sincere, kind girls (while wearing Gucci and Prada). I loved them.

However, I taught the very upper echelon of society. Move down the ladder and the opportunities for girls diminished. I had friends who taught at other, lesser schools who had stories of kids being beaten by their fathers, in front of teachers, at school. Kids who came to school bruised and beaten. Girls who were pulled out of school because they got married at 15, 16, or 17. Sure, these things happen in the USA, but there is a system in place meant to protect them. In Kuwait, teachers were told to ignore it, as there is no legal consequence for child abuse.

I couldn’t help but compare myself to these young girls sometimes. I grew up in a small town in Louisiana, the daughter of traditional Southern Baptist parents. My parents expected their daughters to grow up to be obedient, God-fearing housewives, and therefore did not invest much into our education. My sister is now an MD, and I am working through a PhD program in the sciences. My older sister paved the way for me, thankfully, but my father was initially furious at her decision to apply to med school and threatened to disown her. She was very brave and I am proud to call her my sister.

Swap my humble upbringing in the USA with Kuwait, and I’m not so sure we would have had the same opportunities. I sometimes shudder to think how different my life could have been.

[Karee 4,190]

Um what ??? Where did I say that every single Muslim woman thinks exactly the same ?????

You are welcome to post some articles by Muslim women who agree with topless protests - they do exist.

You should run for political office.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

What's the issue then? FEMEN has people offended all over the globe. Muslim or not, female or not. So some Muslim women are offended. Some western women are offended. Some men are offended. So what?

And so what if FEMEN thinks people ought to shut up about their protests being offensive ?

You should run for political office.

[james&olya 1,121]

I have seen the opposite. Bullies generally bully those weaker than them. The weaker you appear, the more likely you are to encounter bullies. Now if that mousy little girl knows how to defend herself, or at least has a nasty bark, that macho overbearing male might be in for a painful surprise.

I would not dignify the behavior of bullies and abusers by referring to it as aggressive!! At their core they are utter COWARDS! They are WEAK! They vent their hostility on those even weaker than they. Male aggression is biological and natural. Bullying behavior and abusive behavior is sociopathic. There is a big difference between being a normally aggressive male and being a cowardly abuser! Don't confuse the two!!

[james&olya 1,121]

Criticize the criminals all you want - I will join you.

But when you try to "prove" that Islam is somehow behind those crimes, you will get called out. Every single time.

Criminal behavior is deterred far more effectively by the societal attitudes pervasive in the communities of individuals the potential criminal comes from than from any government laws or potential prosecutions. That is true here at home and it is true in mideastern countries. You know that there have been many Islamic clerics that use fairly extreme anti-western rhetoric in their exhortations for anti-western 'jihad'! They help set a tone and attitude within their communities, much like right-wing talk radio does a similar thing here. And while some communities in the mideast were appropriately horrified at the 9-11 carnage, there were other areas where the news was met with celebration. If you try to prove a case using isolated examples you can 'prove' it either way. The whole thing is quite a 'mixed bag' at present. I hope that the decent and peaceloving parts of Islam prevail and help the religion as a whole get beyond some of its current problems. Based on the continuing but incomplete evolution of the christian church in that direction we can have hope.

[james&olya 1,121]

You said "The cool thing is, the Muslim women could have a counter protest to make their point."

Interestingly enough, the fact that Muslim women are counter protesting, is the very subject of this thread !

Actually, not interestingly enough, as the very fact you have to keep reminding people that the muslim women's counter protest occurred at all. It did not attract much attention. You can rant and rave all you want about the injustice of it all but until you realize what FEMEN has, that the first thing an effective protest movement must do is get public attention, you will continue not getting the notice you want. Whether FEMEN accomplishes what they want or not is debatable, but they have certainly found a great way to get attention!

[sandinista! 1,816]

Yes! Amnesty Int'l, Human Rights Watch etc should totally employ more jeering ethno costumery in their protests and reports on abuses around the world, and seriously, I've read lots of their reports, there is not nearly enough of them calling people stupid, brainwashed slaves if they dare offer other perspectives on how to fight for their own damn rights.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Criminal behavior is deterred far more effectively by the societal attitudes pervasive in the communities of individuals the potential criminal comes from than from any government laws or potential prosecutions. That is true here at home and it is true in mideastern countries. You know that there have been many Islamic clerics that use fairly extreme anti-western rhetoric in their exhortations for anti-western 'jihad'! They help set a tone and attitude within their communities, much like right-wing talk radio does a similar thing here. And while some communities in the mideast were appropriately horrified at the 9-11 carnage, there were other areas where the news was met with celebration. If you try to prove a case using isolated examples you can 'prove' it either way. The whole thing is quite a 'mixed bag' at present.

I don't know what all that has to do with blaming Islam in general, which was my quote that you responded to.

In fact, there is a very strong societal attitude against criminal behavior in every single Muslim country that I have visited. For instance in Palestine, disputes are often settled without even using the court system, via the old traditional ways of using village councils made up of respected elders to determine guilt, restitution issues, property division, etc. Even serious cases such as negligent homicide may be adjudicated this way. (It's also usually much quicker than using the court system.)

If someone gets accused of committing a crime, everybody in the whole town is going to know it. And your reputation is everything for making your place in that society - if you are a criminal or a liar or a cheat or a person of poor morals, everyone will know it and they won't want much to do with you and they won't hire you or agree to let you marry their daughter, etc. etc. And your actions reflect on your family. These are the "societal attitudes" that have maintained order and safety in this culture for centuries. You don't have to lock your house or your car, ladies are safe to walk in the street - if anyone even tried to bother you or harass you, a crowd will gather and take care of the offender very fast.

Anyway, about this "jihad" thing. I have been to Palestine many times, which is of course a place where there are many protests and rallies in the street every single week (you don't have to be a "member" - anyone can watch them and see what is going on.) Usually these take place on Fridays after service at the mosque, and it's true that very often, the clerics will have political things to say in their sermons. Many times, they will speak on the microphone for large crowds to hear.

But I never heard anything about "anti-Western jihad;" they were taking about their own struggle against the Israeli occupation, there inside Palestine.

It's true that some of the rallies and protests included US flag-burning. (Well, usually not a real US flag but ones they had made, with the wrong number of stars and stripes, and the blue was the wrong color - they used the sky blue of the Israeli flag which they had also made - or maybe that was done that on purpose.)

But I stood there on the street in my Western-style clothes and my ID which clearly showed that I am a Western-style American, and nobody ever bothered me. Yes, they were clearly criticizing and protesting the US government for its long-standing political and financial support of Israel while it continues to conduct a brutal and illegal occupation and settlement program on Palestinian people. But I never EVER heard or saw anything about "anti-Western jihad," or fighting anywhere outside of Palestine.

In fact, many people I spoke with would tell me the same thing: "We love your democracy, we love your freedoms, we love your music - we want this for Palestine. What we don't love is your government and its policies which are causing so much suffering to our people." Nobody wanted to barge into the US in some crusade to change "Western" society; they just want our government to stop enabling Israel to keep committing crimes against them.

As far as 9/11 - do you know that I was in Palestine not long after 9/11 ? Just about everyone I met - as soon as they realized I am American, they would immediately begin talking about 9/11 and telling me how shocking and horrific that attack was, and how sorry they were that some wacked-out criminals did that, and how they prayed for all the victims. It was genuine, not faked just for the amrikiyya to hear. They were shocked and appalled by it. I never heard a single person say they were glad for it (despite the dubious video that's made the rounds.)

I hope that the decent and peaceloving parts of Islam prevail and help the religion as a whole get beyond some of its current problems. Based on the continuing but incomplete evolution of the christian church in that direction we can have hope.

There is no part of Islam that isn't decent and peaceloving. The fact that there are some Muslim criminals has no bearing on what Islam actually means - just like the fact that there are some Christian or Jewish criminals has no bearing on what Christianity or Judaism actually mean.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Actually, not interestingly enough, as the very fact you have to keep reminding people that the muslim women's counter protest occurred at all. It did not attract much attention. You can rant and rave all you want about the injustice of it all but until you realize what FEMEN has, that the first thing an effective protest movement must do is get public attention, you will continue not getting the notice you want. Whether FEMEN accomplishes what they want or not is debatable, but they have certainly found a great way to get attention!

It's hard to attract attention when some people are determined to ignore them.

The rest of your post is the very definition of "rant and rave."

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Yes! Amnesty Int'l, Human Rights Watch etc should totally employ more jeering ethno costumery in their protests and reports on abuses around the world, and seriously, I've read lots of their reports, there is not nearly enough of them calling people stupid, brainwashed slaves if they dare offer other perspectives on how to fight for their own damn rights.

Per the OP, FEMEN did not do any such thing either. But keep accusing them of it all the same.

In the comments, a woman posted a link to an Al Jazeera article about Muslim women counter-protesting the protest, as they rightfully feel that it was condescending and imperialistic in both tone and intent. FEMEN fans responded to her link in the following ways:

"Stupid muslim women. Made brainless by Quran."

"Stupid slaves!"

You know that there's something wrong with your protest when its ardent supporters find it appropriate to repeatedly call the women they are "saving" stupid and to affirm that they have no capacity for making decisions of their own.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I would not dignify the behavior of bullies and abusers by referring to it as aggressive!! At their core they are utter COWARDS! They are WEAK! They vent their hostility on those even weaker than they. Male aggression is biological and natural. Bullying behavior and abusive behavior is sociopathic. There is a big difference between being a normally aggressive male and being a cowardly abuser! Don't confuse the two!!

There is nothing normal about being overly aggressive, nor is aggression a male trait only. Please check your gender biases at the door before entering an intelligent discussion.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Amina Tyler herself, the person at the center of the FEMEN protests and who supports FEMEN in general, agrees with most Muslim women that the use of religious symbols that represent all Muslims was "going too far."

Seems that she was forced to say that. Starting at about 6:15 Amina confirms that she was pushed to condemn the burning of the flag.

But I suppose the women in that clip is just a double that FEMEN has created...