Muslim Women Shockingly Not Grateful for Topless European Ladies Trying To 'Save' Them

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Just to be clear here..... I don't care what Muslim women do. I only have a problem when a male, govt, or cultural tradition takes away their choice to do or not do something out of line with the Muslim belief.......... or any other belief for that matter. Women should be able to do whatever men do if they want. If they don't want to, that's fine. So long as they had the option.

This is why the whole thing should begin with listening to Muslim women about what they want.

Let's hear from Saudi women - do they want any dress code at all in their country ? Do they want to keep the current dress code in their country ? If not, what do they want instead ? Do they want Western style dress to be accepted on the street, or not ? What if they don't want it ?

People who sincerely want to help Muslim women must first be willing to listen to them, find out what they actually want, and then respect their free choice - including what they think about what's acceptable to wear in public in their society. I don't see where FEMEN has made any of this effort.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Just because I don't agree with another persons or groups beliefs doesn't mean I'm offended by them.

I never suggested you would be.

I'm sure that some people would take offence.

Right. That's what I said. Someone is always offended.

Like I said earlier, I guess it all depends on the person or cause, and whether or not they are trying to be offensive or not.

Might it be that there are people that are actively trying to be offended? Cuts both ways, doesn't it?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

This is why the whole thing should begin with listening to Muslim women about what they want.

Let's hear from Saudi women - do they want any dress code at all in their country ? Do they want to keep the current dress code in their country ? If not, what do they want instead ? Do they want Western style dress to be accepted on the street, or not ? What if they don't want it ?

People who sincerely want to help Muslim women must first be willing to listen to them, find out what they actually want, and then respect their free choice - including what they think about what's acceptable to wear in public in their society. I don't see where FEMEN has made any of this effort.

I agree up to a point: If you are being repressed through intimidation, and fear of reprisal, how willing are you to tell the world what you truly desire? If you live in a male dominated police state, is that really something you brought upon yourself? After all, women are delicate little flowers that could not possibly have an opinion of their own.

[GandD 5,966]

Let's hear from Saudi women - do they want any dress code at all in their country ? Do they want to keep the current dress code in their country ? If not, what do they want instead ? Do they want Western style dress to be accepted on the street, or not ? What if they don't want it ?

Why can't everyone just do what they want? As in, nothing enforced by a government? You shouldn't be able to vote on what a country dress code should be in my opinion. Each family should worry about how they want to dress. Not what the neighbor does.

[GandD 5,966]

And men and women who parade around naked in public are equally arrestable just about everywhere in the world. In the great old state of Massachusetts it gets you registration as a sex offender. I agree that societies should become more open to people's choices for how to live their lives but fail to see how insulting religions and cultures and their members and acting like you know better because you're an "enlightened" westerner is the way to go. You don't reach out to people you're intent on helping by slapping them across the face.

I wondered how long it would take before the naked argument would come out. It is a good point I think but all countries (just about) have laws enforcing the covering of "sexual organs" to protect children. I think this is a connected but different issue than a country mandated dress code.

Oh, and I didn't insult the Muslim culture.

Edited April 15, 2013 by GandD

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

This is why the whole thing should begin with listening to Muslim women about what they want.

Let's hear from Saudi women - do they want any dress code at all in their country ? Do they want to keep the current dress code in their country ? If not, what do they want instead ? Do they want Western style dress to be accepted on the street, or not ? What if they don't want it ?

Do they all want the same thing? Cause if they do not, then what most of them want may not be the same as what some of them want. If most Saudi women want a strict dress code, does that mean that some will be robbed of their choice to dress less strictly? The reverse of these silly burka bans they introduced in Europe - I think that's wrong. If a woman wants to wear that garb, then she should be able to do that. And if she doesn't, she shouldn't have to even if most prefer that dress code. The only way out of this is by affording women individual choice.

[sara..... 371]

I agree up to a point: If you are being repressed through intimidation, and fear of reprisal, how willing are you to tell the world what you truly desire? If you live in a male dominated police state, is that really something you brought upon yourself? After all, women are delicate little flowers that could not possibly have an opinion of their own.

Im not sure how far to go when answering this.......but all Muslim women have the ability to turn their husbands head to what they want.......that is if the Muslim man is living according to Islam........

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I agree up to a point: If you are being repressed through intimidation, and fear of reprisal, how willing are you to tell the world what you truly desire? If you live in a male dominated police state, is that really something you brought upon yourself? After all, women are delicate little flowers that could not possibly have an opinion of their own.

I don't know about the delicate little flowers - it's nothing I ever said. I've already posted some videos of Saudi women activists in the driving protests, and they seem quite outspoken.

So things are changing, and Saudi women do speak out. You have to look for these articles, as they don't make the front page very often, but they're there:

From the outside, progress on women’s rights in the kingdom may appear to be mired in tar. After all, women are still not allowed to drive, they can’t get a job or take a loan without the permission of a male family member, and their designated male guardians, usually a husband or a father, are notified via SMS every time they leave the kingdom. But from the perspective of women inside the country, dizzying changes are afoot. For the first time, female athletes represented Saudi Arabia at the Olympics last year in London. An employment ban has been lifted for female cashiers at supermarkets, and women have taken the place of men in lingerie and cosmetic stores across the country. And in Riyadh on March 26, Cabinet ministers issued a new law making national identification cards mandatory for all women, granting them identities independent from their families and paving the way toward lifting the onerous guardianship system that treats every woman, regardless of her age, as a minor. That would be a crowning achievement for King Abdullah, who has done more for women in his eight-year reign than any monarch since his brother, King Faisal, allowed girls to go to school in 1964.

...

“Abdullah has a strong desire to see women advance in Saudi,” says Fawzia al-Bakr, a women’s rights activist and professor at King Saud University. “He wants them to work, he has given them scholarships [to Western universities], and now, with the Shura, he is tackling the most difficult issue in our society today: segregation. If you can get rid of segregation, then most of our problems will be solved.” But at age 88, King Abdullah doesn’t have much time. If he pushes for reforms too quickly, the country’s conservative majority may rebel. Too slowly, and he may not live long enough to ensure they take root. Appointing women to the Shura Council may be the best way to cement the progress he has been able to achieve so far.

Many skeptics have dismissed the move as symbolic. The council, which is largely composed of academics and bureaucrats, has no legislative teeth. But in Saudi Arabia, symbols are enough to set change in motion. When King Abdullah first floated the idea of women on the council nearly two years ago, he suggested they would serve in a separate room, linked to the main body via video feed — a nod to conservatives who abjure gender mixing. When the new appointees took their seats, however, they did so in the very same hall as the men — a radical departure for a government that officially promotes segregation of the sexes. The Shura Council sessions are often televised, so having women in the hall is sure to make a big impact, says Al Akbaria’s head of programming, Rawda al-Jazani. “Just the visuals of seeing women sitting in the Shura, with their faces uncovered, making equal decisions with men, that alone will make women in authority more acceptable to society.”

http://world.time.com/2013/03/27/in-saudi-arabia-womens-voices-are-starting-to-be-heard/

So change is happening. Of course, the article notes that there is still a long way to go to reach the goals that Saudi women want. But it's also important to recognize that the reality of life for Saudi Arabian women is far more complex than a simple stereotype of being locked up, beaten, and threatened by their own families if they dare to have an opinion, etc. etc. They are doing things in their own way, which may not be the way Western women would do things.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Do they all want the same thing? Cause if they do not, then what most of them want may not be the same as what some of them want. If most Saudi women want a strict dress code, does that mean that some will be robbed of their choice to dress less strictly? The reverse of these silly burka bans they introduced in Europe - I think that's wrong. If a woman wants to wear that garb, then she should be able to do that. And if she doesn't, she shouldn't have to even if most prefer that dress code. The only way out of this is by affording women individual choice.

Well, we heard a lot about what you think. The question is: what do Muslim women think. There have been quite a few articles posted in this thread written by Muslim women, but it seems not many people even notice they're there. No topless pics, I guess.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I don't know about the delicate little flowers - it's nothing I ever said.

That was a little tongue in cheek.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Well, we heard a lot about what you think. The question is: what do Muslim women think.

The question is, is there such a thing as what Muslim women think? I honestly don't believe there is. Muslim women are as diverse a group as any other group of women. So, individual choice is what it comes down to. Why should Muslim women not be trusted making their own individual choices?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Im not sure how far to go when answering this.......but all Muslim women have the ability to turn their husbands head to what they want.......that is if the Muslim man is living according to Islam........

I married an Asian, and I understand a bit of that manipulation. It has nothing to do with Islam, it comes from being raised in a male dominated society. Personally, I hate it, and it gets old quickly.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

The question is, is there such a thing as what Muslim women think? I honestly don't believe there is.

[Shoot Em Straight 385]

Not getting into Religion or Politics

I can attest it is a absolute wonderful feeling to cover my personal assets and still radiate confidence. There is no need to "show off" in order to have notice of others. I dress respectfully for myself, then out of respect for my husband.

I feel even more beautiful under the modest clothes knowing only my husband has knowledge of what God has gifted us with.

Many posts back it was touched upon of how one member is proud to dress modest and I reiterate that feeling. There are beautiful ways to dress as a woman without baring too much, Maxi dresses are extremely feminine yet still cover. Still have a flare.

Also It is a good example to ones own children in this country. The revealing clothes the younger girls wear out in public/to school oversteps many boundaries now a days....not just Islam.

It remains a woman's choice to cover.

About S.A., I am told, it has more to do with the type of government law NOT Islam when it comes to the rights of women to drive.

So many times my sisters/in-laws overseas laugh at how easy they have it on a bad hair days...with there hijab.

Not trying to per sway anyone's ideas with this post...just sharing my experience on modest dressing.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

There isn't. Because Muslim women are a diverse group, there are many different points of view among Muslim women. You presented certain points of view held by some - maybe even most - Muslim women. That does not mean, however, that this point of view represents what ALL Muslim women think. The point of view these Muslim women offer is as valid as any other point of view that other Muslim women may have on the issue.