In state tuition for Illegal immigrants?

[JohnR! 5,495]

How about an educated drug dealer? Double Stuff for the economy and maybe elevate drug dealing to the same level of respectality as unlawful presence.

That might cause you to fall in disfavor with pharmacists in general. Moreover, the OP is working on a school essay, not a remake of the screen adaption of War and Peace, in case the paradigm is foreign to you.

Edited April 5, 2013 by Gegel

[Caryh 5,206]

Drug dealing puts money into the local economy too - both from the deal itself and the necessity to hire law enforcement to deal with the crime. Good for the economy, so lets encourage the drug dealers.

True. However, States can (and should) set the criteria for who is elligible for in-state and out-of state tuition. Schools can also set criteria for who is elligble to enroll, including how they define 'residency'.

Drug dealing costs money because we're using tax money to enforce laws and jail people who use and or distribute drugs. If we dropped those laws or just decided we would not enforce them, like we did with alcohol, then they would become a positive market force.

The illegal immigrants are working in our society because we've created a market for their labor. They pay taxes, they buy products, they're living and supporting the system here, even if they came here in violation of the immigration laws. We can spend more money booting them out if we wish, but they'll keep coming as long as we have no one to fill the jobs our labor market has created for them. Because many illegals have in the past contributed to payroll deductions, they're supporting our SS system without being able to take benefits from it later. Do we really want to keep their children uneducated so the only choice they have in the world is to return as illegal immigrants and fill the jobs their parents once did? They won't know a damn thing about surviving in the native country they came from. Maybe it would be more humane to shoot them so they fall back across the border of the country their parents took them from?

[erynaught 43]

That might cause you to fall in disfavor with pharmacists in general. Moreover, the OP is working on a school essay, not a remake of the screen adaption of War and Peace, in case the paradigm is foreign to you.

But a pharmcist is an educated drug dealer.

Anyway, the relevant point to the OP is that people should not be rewarded for noncompliance with our laws. From a compliance standpoint, an illegal alien is no different from a drug dealer. They are both breaking the law.

Just because an illegal alien has a heart-wrenching story doesn't mean they are eligible for benefits or can define their own short-cuts. There is a path for those benefits and they should follow the correct path.

[Caryh 5,206]

US immigration is unnecessarily complex, but not too restrictive. I would argue it is not restrictive enough. Not everyone comes here for a job either ... don't need to go any further than this forum to understand that.

If you don't like the laws, work to change the laws.

I am curious though, does the term "illegal alien" cover both those who came into the US undocumented as well as those who are now unlawfully present because they overstayed their visa?

No one is forcing anyone to starve. No one is forcing anyone to remain where they don't belong. I am also not advocating a round-up. Sure, there is a need for migrant workers in this country and as long as employers are willing to exploit people by paying sub-par wages and unsafe working conditions, then there will always be illegal migrant workers in this country too. This does not mean they should be rewarded with public benefits.

People should be allowed to immigrate on their ability to make a positive contribution to our society. I have an issue with people who are willing to disregard the law to achieve their end goal.

The problem is, the USA has and has long had an economy that is based on immigrants entering the USA. When congress created laws to limit immigration, it did so ignoring the how our economy worked, and its dependence on immigrants. They've kept the quota on immigrants so low, there's been a big hole just waiting for illegals to jump in and take the jobs. The south of the border cultures have learned this and learned it well. So they come in the huge numbers needed to fill this demand. Many industries started noticing this population of illegals and replaced American citizens at higher pay with low wage illegals, only increasing the demand and numbers of illegals.

You can blame the illegals all you want, but America has created the problem and refuses to do anything about it other than demonizing the very people we encouraged to come here with the policies of our government and the greed in some industries. We'll never solve the illegal immigrant problem trying to punish the illegals. Its like trying to solve the illegal drug problem by making using a crime, it hasn't worked any better than it did making alcohol illegal in prohibition did.

[JohnR! 5,495]

But a pharmcist is an educated drug dealer.

Hence my comment that suggesting they should be treated for unlawful presence might cause you to fall in disfavor with the entire class.

[erynaught 43]

The problem is, the USA has and has long had an economy that is based on immigrants entering the USA. When congress created laws to limit immigration, it did so ignoring the how our economy worked, and its dependence on immigrants. They've kept the quota on immigrants so low, there's been a big hole just waiting for illegals to jump in and take the jobs. The south of the border cultures have learned this and learned it well. So they come in the huge numbers needed to fill this demand. Many industries started noticing this population of illegals and replaced American citizens at higher pay with low wage illegals, only increasing the demand and numbers of illegals.

You can blame the illegals all you want, but America has created the problem and refuses to do anything about it other than demonizing the very people we encouraged to come here with the policies of our government and the greed in some industries. We'll never solve the illegal immigrant problem trying to punish the illegals. Its like trying to solve the illegal drug problem by making using a crime, it hasn't worked any better than it did making alcohol illegal in prohibition did.

Sure, I have no problem blaming someone for the situation they put themselves in. Just because I am willing to pay someone $1 per day to pick corn in Texas doesn't mean it's okay for someone to cross the border illegaly to work for me and pick that corn, even if that $1 per day is ten times more than they'd make back home. If they do so, then they should be responsible for the consequences of their actions. And if I'm trucking them in illegaly then I should suffer consequences too.

I also agree that solving that punishing illegal immigrants won't solve the illegal immigration problem. I am not even sure it is a 'problem', but rather one of those necessary, but rather undisclosed, parts of our society. However, that certainly doesn't mean we should encourage illegal immigration by providing benefits and priviledges to illegal immigrants, like reduced tuition rates as the OP inquired about. They have a prescribed path to move forward with their lives ... they should follow it. Some options may not be available to them. That's life.

I would also argue that your view of the US economy is somewhat out of date. The US economy is no longer based on agriculture or mass manufacturing, the two drivers of earlier waves of migration. The need for an immigrant workforce is nowhere near what it was a hundred years ago.

[Darnell 8,479]

On the other hand,

Is best when you not respond , quoting one of my posts - you remember, aye ?

This topic is not a debate topic, and you've turned it into one.

[JohnR! 5,495]

Is best when you not respond , quoting one of my posts - you remember, aye ?

Please accept my apologies for unwillingly conveying the notion I should care.

[Caryh 5,206]

Sure, I have no problem blaming someone for the situation they put themselves in. Just because I am willing to pay someone $1 per day to pick corn in Texas doesn't mean it's okay for someone to cross the border illegaly to work for me and pick that corn, even if that $1 per day is ten times more than they'd make back home. If they do so, then they should be responsible for the consequences of their actions. And if I'm trucking them in illegaly then I should suffer consequences too.

I also agree that solving that punishing illegal immigrants won't solve the illegal immigration problem. I am not even sure it is a 'problem', but rather one of those necessary, but rather undisclosed, parts of our society. However, that certainly doesn't mean we should encourage illegal immigration by providing benefits and priviledges to illegal immigrants, like reduced tuition rates as the OP inquired about. They have a prescribed path to move forward with their lives ... they should follow it. Some options may not be available to them. That's life.

I would also argue that your view of the US economy is somewhat out of date. The US economy is no longer based on agriculture or mass manufacturing, the two drivers of earlier waves of migration. The need for an immigrant workforce is nowhere near what it was a hundred years ago.

Take a look at who's putting those roofs on people's home today, I can tell you this, you're not going to be speaking English to them, except to yell immigration and then you'll delay your roof getting done. Take a peak around your office building and see who's emptying the trash cans, again don't give them any instructions in English, and immigration usually isn't checking those places after hours. If I peak back into the kitchen at my favorite Italian restaurant, those ain't Italians back there any longer. A number of years back I put some control systems into a hog slaughtering plant, and you would have thought I was in Mexico. White people don't want to have their arms up to their shoulders in dead pigs any more. You may think there's no need for illegal immigrants in the economy of the USA today, but there's many sectors of the business world that don't care what you're thinking. They've gotten cheaper workers without papers from south of the border, and they have a waiting line of more ready to come if immigration throws the current batch out.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm just saying its what is. They're part of our society if we like it or not. And our society will do better the more educated people are. One thing I have noticed, is all the anti-illegal boogeyman scare going has made more people just plain anti-immigrant. And that affects my spouse. All the outright lies and distortions being perpetuated have distorted any type of reason on the topic, and creating nothing but hatred towards any immigrant to this country.

[JstaRebel 48]

Drug dealing costs money because we're using tax money to enforce laws and jail people who use and or distribute drugs. If we dropped those laws or just decided we would not enforce them, like we did with alcohol, then they would become a positive market force.

The illegal immigrants are working in our society because we've created a market for their labor. They pay taxes, they buy products, they're living and supporting the system here, even if they came here in violation of the immigration laws. We can spend more money booting them out if we wish, but they'll keep coming as long as we have no one to fill the jobs our labor market has created for them. Because many illegals have in the past contributed to payroll deductions, they're supporting our SS system without being able to take benefits from it later. Do we really want to keep their children uneducated so the only choice they have in the world is to return as illegal immigrants and fill the jobs their parents once did? They won't know a damn thing about surviving in the native country they came from. Maybe it would be more humane to shoot them so they fall back across the border of the country their parents took them from?

A couple of things I'd like to bring up regarding illegals and taxes. Large corporations such as Tyson foods, Raeford Farms, and Columbia farms (that I'm aware of) use a temp. service for hiring illegal workers for their processing plants. The immigrants do NOT pay income tax, SS tax or disability. In fact, one of the things that makes me sick is how Big Corporate America makes money off of using the fact that the workers are Ilegal. Also the temp companies that hire out the immigrants charge each one $2-3.00/ hr. for them to work at these processing plants. I have turned in Columbia Farms on three different ocassions while working on their water treatment equipment in Spartenburg, SC.

You're so correct with your posts regarding who is doing all of the construction (roofs, concrete, ect..) in America today. If our government (IMHO) would hold the companies that hire illegal immigrants accountable, the problem wouldn't be as big as it is. It really sucks when a kid in say his senior year of HS goes out to get a summer job on a construction site and can't even be a laborer because he doesn't speak spanish.. This is just wrong, but you can't blame any person for wanting to better their lives. I can however blame American companies that will take advantage of another human being in order to majke a better profit and "help their bottom line".. Greed and Vanity... The worst of the sins!!

[NikLR 13,232]

You may think agriculture doesn't drive America but think about where that lettuce comes from that you eat. Just because you choose to think that it doesn't drive the America's economy doesn't mean it doesn't. When food costs more, people's wages go up to compensate. Agriculture is no longer small, family businesses but rather large corporations that hire cheap labour so they can keep costs down and make money. Farming is, in no way, shape, or form, cheap. John Deere is a flourishing company.

Think about every job you think you are too good to do. Are you gonna make hotel beds? Cook burgers at McDonald's? Pick up trash after a carnival? If you won't, what makes you think any other average American will? What do you think happens when these jobs don't get done?

Make it easier to get a work visa and you'll find less illegals.

[erynaught 43]

You may think there's no need for illegal immigrants in the economy of the USA today, but there's many sectors of the business world that don't care what you're thinking. They've gotten cheaper workers without papers from south of the border, and they have a waiting line of more ready to come if immigration throws the current batch out.

Quite the contrary, I do believe there is a need for illegal immigrant workers in the USA economy. Indeed, once they become legal immigrant workers they are less likely to be exploited by unscrupulous businesses thereby continuing the need for additional illegant immigrant workers.

Getting back to the OPs original query, it still doesn't mean they should receive benefits, priviledges, etc. They come to work illegaly at their own risk.

One thing I have noticed, is all the anti-illegal boogeyman scare going has made more people just plain anti-immigrant. And that affects my spouse. All the outright lies and distortions being perpetuated have distorted any type of reason on the topic, and creating nothing but hatred towards any immigrant to this country.

Truly sorry to hear your spouse has had this experience. I do believe it happens, but I do not think it's pervasive to the extent you allude. I've many immigrant friends and rarely hear this kind of complaint from them. My wife is an immigrant (Thai, surgeon by profession) and after several years in the USA she has experienced far more curiosity and intrigue with her immigrant status and background. She feels very welcome here.

[erynaught 43]

Think about every job you think you are too good to do. Are you gonna make hotel beds? Cook burgers at McDonald's? Pick up trash after a carnival? If you won't, what makes you think any other average American will? What do you think happens when these jobs don't get done?

I cannot think of any job I'm too good to do. I think I have a set of skills and experience that allows me to engage in a job I enjoy, meets my needs and pays well. Just because I have choices doesn't mean I'm too good for certain types of work. Should the only job available be cleaning my neighbors toilets, then I would do so to the best of my ability. I don't look down on people who do the work you noted above. Honest work is honest work.

Make it easier to get a work visa and you'll find less illegals.

Sure, you'll find less illegals, but you won't find substantially less illegal immigrant workers. The majority of businesses/companies that employ illegal immigrant workers DO NOT WANT legal immigrant workers because then they will need to pay legal wages, taxes, insurance, etc. which will eat into their profits and most likely increase the cost of goods/services they provide.

[NikLR 13,232]

I cannot think of any job I'm too good to do. I think I have a set of skills and experience that allows me to engage in a job I enjoy, meets my needs and pays well. Just because I have choices doesn't mean I'm too good for certain types of work. Should the only job available be cleaning my neighbors toilets, then I would do so to the best of my ability. I don't look down on people who do the work you noted above. Honest work is honest work.

Sure, you'll find less illegals, but you won't find substantially less illegal immigrant workers. The majority of businesses/companies that employ illegal immigrant workers DO NOT WANT legal immigrant workers because then they will need to pay legal wages, taxes, insurance, etc. which will eat into their profits and most likely increase the cost of goods/services they provide.

There are a great many people that feel jobs are too far beneath them to work. Glad to know you're not one of them but you're a drop in an empty bucket tbh.

[TBoneTX 46,120]

Did the OP get sufficient answers to the original questions?