Gun violence affects everyone

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Dam skippy I am right. Nothing in the past excuses what happens in the present.

Ignorance is bliss. Of course you use the past to defend your "impartial and objective" viewpoint just about everyday here, but naturally that is different and doesn't count. Good thing I hesitated before I hit add reply as I inadvertently left out the o when I typed count. Dead serious.

[himher 634]

Oh I know why they target minorities, it's no secret. My thing is since they have targeted the group that commits the most crime as you point out, why hasn't it dropped? I mean they are catching folks as they are leaving the house to go to school and work, and if you're a minority they are going to frisk you. So, why hasn't crime rate drop below 5% if they are SAF every single black and brown person in the city?

Same reason the crime doesn't drop when they impose strict gun control.

Told ya - I understand 'stop and frisk' but I don't like it. I do like this. A red-handed perp. A fair trial. A jury from the community itself, and a harsh, harsh penalty.

Even if they have to impose penalties like they do over in Saudi. Do that, crime drops like a rock. It ain't pretty, but it's effective.

[himher 634]

Ignorance is bliss. Of course you use the past to defend your "impartial and objective" viewpoint just about everyday here, but naturally that is different and doesn't count. Good thing I hesitated before I hit add reply as I inadvertently left out the o when I typed count. Dead serious.

Yes I use the present and the fact that nobody from my family (ever since the time they arrived on US soil) and nobody from my generation bothered or interfered with or failed to comply with any rule, regulation, or requirement to let the black community move on from the past.

That's 4 decades of it BTW.

Far from being "impartial and objective" however I see a community that has had 50 years to get themselves together and cannot seem to get it done and blame it on things that happened more than 50 years ago and having seen that community unbothered (better than unbothered - actually coddled) for 40 years place the responsibility squarely on the backs of the community iteslf. It's otherwise a pathetic sight for which YOUR best answer is a black and white photo from the 20's or 30's.

That's 80 years ago dude.

So, being blameless, your ancient black and white photos stir no guilt or action or remorse from my side. Cry about what happened to your great grandparents to someone else.

Edited April 2, 2013 by himher

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Same reason the crime doesn't drop when they impose strict gun control.

Told ya - I understand 'stop and frisk' but I don't like it. I do like this. A red-handed perp. A fair trial. A jury from the community itself, and a harsh, harsh penalty.

Even if they have to impose penalties like they do over in Saudi. Do that, crime drops like a rock. It ain't pretty, but it's effective.

And that's the problem when you cast a net over an entire race of people. The same folks that are against a gun ban are awfully quiet when it comes to SAF. Because they aren't worried, they're not black or brown, so it's of no consequence to them. 9 out of 10 folks SAF are innocent, change your routine up, obviously something is not working.

Here's a suggestion, try to actually catch criminals, not just black and brown people. Go to the bad areas and look for the dudes and gals on the corner at 2am. My guess they aren't out there for an evening stroll, look at the dudes that flash gang signs and flags(white people do it to, just for some reason they don't bother them). Be wary of the dude that walks into a store and tries to buy 20 guns in a month's time, he might be planning something, stop looking at their skin color and watch their actions. Every article I have read says the same thing, if you are a minority, wear Jordans, and your pants are sagging, you're getting stopped guaranteed.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Yes I use the present and the fact that nobody from my family (ever since the time they arrived on US soil) and nobody from my generation bothered or interfered with or failed to comply with any rule, regulation, or requirement to let the black community move on from the past.

That's 4 decades of it BTW.

Far from being "impartial and objective" however I see a community that has had 50 years to get themselves together and cannot seem to get it done and blame it on things that happened more than 50 years ago and having seen that community unbothered (better than unbothered - actually coddled) for 40 years place the responsibility squarely on the backs of the community iteslf. It's otherwise a pathetic sight for which YOUR best answer is a black and white photo from the 20's or 30's.

That's 80 years ago dude.

So, being blameless, your ancient black and white photos stir no guilt or action or remorse from my side. Cry about what happened to your great grandparents to someone else.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt. You have removed all doubt. Glad you stick to the present.

[himher 634]

I gave you the benefit of the doubt. You have removed all doubt. Glad you stick to the present.

Thanks. I don't actually want or need anything from you though. So while I stick to the present you are free to stick your benefit of the doubt

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Thanks. I don't actually want or need anything from you though. So while I stick to the present you are free to stick your benefit of the doubt

Whatever you say. Tough guy.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Yes I use the present and the fact that nobody from my family (ever since the time they arrived on US soil) and nobody from my generation bothered or interfered with or failed to comply with any rule, regulation, or requirement to let the black community move on from the past.

That's 4 decades of it BTW.

Far from being "impartial and objective" however I see a community that has had 50 years to get themselves together and cannot seem to get it done and blame it on things that happened more than 50 years ago and having seen that community unbothered (better than unbothered - actually coddled) for 40 years place the responsibility squarely on the backs of the community iteslf. It's otherwise a pathetic sight for which YOUR best answer is a black and white photo from the 20's or 30's.

That's 80 years ago dude.

So, being blameless, your ancient black and white photos stir no guilt or action or remorse from my side. Cry about what happened to your great grandparents to someone else.

You really should do some more homework. By your accounts, slavery ended and it was a walk in the park for us. It wasn't that long ago that blacks and white were separated from eating in the same place. But let's look at the bigger picture. You, I and quite a few others have talked about the government creating a dependence so that minorities can stay in the places they are now. How do you get out from that? Danno once said all you have to do is graduate high school, join the military and make something of yourself. Sounds easy enough, except for the fact that kids are being shot and killed every single day in these neighborhoods. Babies for crying out loud. Look at the median income for a black family versus a white family:

The median household net worth for whites was $110,729 in 2010, versus $4,995 for blacks, according to recently released Census Bureau figures.http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/21/news/economy/wealth-gap-race/index.htm

We are always told that we hold ourselves back, and to a certain extent that is true. Ignorance, self loathing, contempt, and lack of drive due to a system designed to keep us in that place have seen us to it. 8 years ago you couldn't tell me we would elect a black president. Then folks say look at how far we've come, a black president. A man who holds the highest government office in the free world, who was forced to show his birth certificate, something no president in history had to do. And you have all these folks that talk about taking our country back. From what is the question, where did the country go? When Bush threw us in debt, people were upset, but did someone ever say, lets take the country back. And where was the Tea Party?

[Karee 4,191]

We are always told that we hold ourselves back, and to a certain extent that is true. Ignorance, self loathing, contempt, and lack of drive due to a system designed to keep us in that place have seen us to it. 8 years ago you couldn't tell me we would elect a black president. Then folks say look at how far we've come, a black president. A man who holds the highest government office in the free world, who was forced to show his birth certificate, something no president in history had to do. And you have all these folks that talk about taking our country back. From what is the question, where did the country go? When Bush threw us in debt, people were upset, but did someone ever say, lets take the country back. And where was the Tea Party?

That birth certificate thing is getting old. Obama isn't the only president/candidate that goes through stuff like that. It been happening on both sides for years. The guy got elected twice. I assume "let's take the country back' means lets take it back from the politicians. I don't know. The groups on the left were brutal with Bush.

I think it has very little with him being black. I'm sure there are people out there that hate him because of that. I'm also sure there were black people that hated Bush because he was white. But I think they are a pretty small minority on both sides. Being black has helped him as well. Who gets a Nobel peace prize for winning an election?

Like I've said before, I think Obama is pretty much what's been expected on domestic policy. Spend more money than we have. Alot more. He's outdone what Bush did in his 8 years, in 4 years when it comes to racking up debt.

Surprisingly though with practically no foreign policy experience, I think he's been one of the best I've seen in foreign policy.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

That birth certificate thing is getting old. Obama isn't the only president/candidate that goes through stuff like that. It been happening on both sides for years. The guy got elected twice. I assume "let's take the country back' means lets take it back from the politicians. I don't know. The groups on the left were brutal with Bush.

I think it has very little with him being black. I'm sure there are people out there that hate him because of that. I'm also sure there were black people that hated Bush because he was white. But I think they are a pretty small minority on both sides. Being black has helped him as well. Who gets a Nobel peace prize for winning an election?

Like I've said before, I think Obama is pretty much what's been expected on domestic policy. Spend more money than we have. Alot more. He's outdone what Bush did in his 8 years, in 4 years when it comes to racking up debt.

Surprisingly though with practically no foreign policy experience, I think he's been one of the best I've seen in foreign policy.

I bring it up because it's never been an issue for any other president. And there has been some pretty nasty stuff out there. I say that because when we were in debt, in a war that a lot of folks didn't understand, no one said lets take our country back. Bush was painted as an idiot for a while, yet there was no request to see his college degree. His military record was in question, but there wasn't an entire movement about it.

[Danno 1,228]

The median household net worth for whites was $110,729 in 2010, versus $4,995 for blacks, according to recently released Census Bureau figures.http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/21/news/economy/wealth-gap-race/index.htm

We are always told that we hold ourselves back, and to a certain extent that is true. Ignorance, self loathing, contempt, and lack of drive due to a system designed to keep us in that place have seen us to it. 8 years ago you couldn't tell me we would elect a black president. Then folks say look at how far we've come, a black president. A man who holds the highest government office in the free world, who was forced to show his birth certificate, something no president in history had to do. And you have all these folks that talk about taking our country back. From what is the question, where did the country go? When Bush threw us in debt, people were upset, but did someone ever say, lets take the country back. And where was the Tea Party?

Again you are making race comparisons as if there are no other factors which determine a families household worth.

When you have such a high drop-out rate, such a high incarceration rate such a high rate of children being born without the stability that a married couple bring ... you must realize these actions have consequences. Also Net worth has a lot to do with "what you do with your money not what you make".

Your assessment seems to lack all proportion.

You say Obama was the first president to have a birth certificate request, ..... as if his circumstances where the same as Most Blacks in america, his was a bit unusual and when you mix politics into it, this is the result.

I have yet to hear you lament that George Bush had his military record ... not only taken apart but then fabricated and run on Prime-time prior to an election (IIRC).

I still say Obama has had a walk in the Park compared to Clinton.

It's typical behavior for a party to be more outraged when "The other team does something" which is why the indigestion the Left had about Bush's deficit.... evaporated when Obama did the same thing.

Forgive me but I really see this as -Politics as usual- more than any race issue.

I don't even meet people who dislike Obama, they just dislike his politics, can you say the same about Bush, Clinton Hillary, Gore Chenney?

-----------------------------------------

To understand part of the reasons Blacks tend to have a lower household net worth, read the answer.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/perfi/retirement/2009-07-06-saving-retirement-minorities_N.htm

For many minorities, saving isn't so easy

By Sandra Block and Laura Petrecca, USA TODAY

Many Americans fear they'll outlive their savings, but African Americans and Hispanics face an even greater risk of spending the end of their lives in poverty.

Members of those two groups are less likely than white and Asian workers to participate in their employers' 401(k) plans, and when they do contribute, they save less, according to a study scheduled for release today by Ariel Education Initiative and Hewitt Associates.

African Americans and Hispanics also are much more likely to take money out of their 401(k) plans for emergencies, which could further stunt long-term savings growth. And they are less likely to invest in stocks in favor of low-risk investments and real estate, increasing the risk that their savings won't keep pace with inflation, retirement specialists say.

The survey, which analyzed data from nearly 3 million employees at the end of 2007, found significant differences in retirement savings even among higher-income employees. White workers who made $120,000 or more had an average balance of $223,408 in their 401(k) plans, vs. $154,902 for African Americans in the same salary range.

Monica Flamand, 33, a fraud analyst in Chicago who is Hispanic, has a 401(k) plan through her job but has saved only about $6,000 in five years. Her husband doesn't have a 401(k) plan, she says. She worries that Social Security won't be there for her when she retires.

"We don't save," she says. "We should. We could, if we really wanted to, save at least 3% of our paycheck, which is probably what we should talk about doing."

Last year's bear market wiped out 27% of the typical worker's 401(k) plan, according to Fidelity Investments, forcing millions of Americans to save more, delay retirement or both. Many Americans have increased their savings rate in recent months, even as many employers have reduced or eliminated matches to 401(k) plans. But the Ariel/Hewitt study indicates that African Americans and Hispanics will have to save at a significantly faster pace than others to have a chance at a comfortable retirement .

The survey's authors say the savings gap among races can be closed by automatically enrolling workers in 401(k) plans, improving financial literacy and giving workers more time to repay 401(k)-plan loans. Why African Americans and Hispanics are falling behind, according to Ariel/Hewitt:

Inexperience

Angelique Anguiano, 27, of Oak Park, Ill., an account manager for telecommunications services firm Cimco Communications, is putting 5% of her salary into her 401(k) and has saved about $10,000.

Anguiano, of Mexican and Puerto Rican descent, says that her first-generation family didn't talk much about 401(k)s or other retirement instruments. She says the same is true for friends who come from similar backgrounds.

"Our parents didn't necessarily grow up with a strong financial education," she says. "They tend to think of savings as a savings account."

In turn, she has had to learn about financial products and saving for retirement through her college classes and her work experience.

"In the U.S., there is a 401(k) culture where most people simply know that it is something you have," Mike Periu, principal of EcoFin Media, which develops financial literacy content in Spanish and English, said in an e-mail. "This is not the case for many Hispanics. The benefits of a 401(k), or even how to participate, is something new that must be taught."

Hairdresser Janice Davis, 40, an African American who lives in Chicago, says she was brought up in the rural South by grandparents who didn't understand how financial instruments worked. "They expected to retire and draw Social Security. That's what it was back then," she says.

Davis got her financial education the hard way. When she decided to launch a 4,000-square-foot, full-service spa in the Chicago area, she cashed out the majority of her 401(k). Business was going well, she says, but she found it difficult to turn a profit. She sold it last year and is out the money that she withdrew from her retirement account.

"Now, I'm in the process of trying to rebuild" that, she says. "I realized that if I don't save for the future, no one else is going to do it for me."

Derrick Johnson, 41, vice president of Zeller Realty Group in Chicago, is an example of how education at home can pay off.

Johnson says his father taught him at an early age that he should save for retirement before spending money on anything else. He started putting the maximum allowed into his 401(k) plan in his early 20s and now has a balance of more than $100,000.

Competing obligations

African Americans and Hispanics typically have less wealth than whites, says Alicia Munnell, director of the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College. When they're in a "race to meet the monthly bills," she says, saving is a lower priority.

African Americans and Hispanics also are less likely to inherit money than whites, Munnell says, which leaves less of a financial cushion against hard times. As a result, she says, these groups have a tougher time putting money in a retirement account and also tend to be more cautious about investing in the unpredictable stock market.

Minorities also may be held back by family obligations, says Monique Morrissey, economist at the Economic Policy Institute. If a worker comes from a demographic group that has been disadvantaged over generations, she says, the individual is more likely to be responsible for family members.

Lack of trust

Deena MacAllister, 38, an African American who lives in Tallahassee, says she and her husband, a pastor, have saved more than $60,000 in a retirement plan offered by his church. She's comfortable with the amount they've saved but acknowledges that most of the money is in low-risk annuities that protect their investment but offer a limited return.

"To be honest, we have not been very aggressive in terms of doing it through stocks," she says. They are planning to meet with a financial planner.

African-American workers are less likely than other workers to invest in stocks, which could limit the long-term growth of their savings, according to the Ariel/Hewitt study.

Overall, African-American workers invest 66% of their 401(k)s in stocks, vs. 70% for Hispanics and 72% for whites. African-American employees ages 30 to 49 — considered the prime ages for investing in stocks — were the most conservative.

Mellody Hobson, president of Ariel Investments, a Chicago-based mutual fund company, has studied African-American attitudes toward investing for years and says her research suggests that many equate investing in the stock market with gambling.

Years like last year, she adds, "reinforced this point of view, when you see these wild rides and massive volatility."

"When we do invest, we prefer real estate, outside of an employer-sponsored retirement plan," says Hobson, who is black. "And when we do save, we favor more conservative investments."

Older Hispanics also are less likely to trust financial markets, says Jay Rossi, principal of multicultural marketing firm DDR Global. "They hold onto money and invest in tangible things that one can touch, see and manage, such as real estate and cars. The whole idea of putting money into the hands of professional money managers is relatively new."

In this economy, people who invest in conservative investments, such as money market funds, are "going to feel pretty good," says Marina Edwards, senior retirement consultant at Towers Perrin, a consulting firm. But over time, the stock market's average rate of return has been about 8%, vs. 1% to 3% for a money market fund, she says.

Higher withdrawal rates

African Americans are more than twice as likely as whites or Asians to take a hardship withdrawal from their 401(k) plans. The withdrawal rate also was higher for Hispanics, although not as high as African Americans'. Asians had the lowest rate.

"That was maybe the most troubling and surprising thing in this study," says Barbara Hogg, a principal at Hewitt, a human resources and retirement plan consultant. Taking withdrawals from plans that already are smaller than average "has a huge impact" on retirement security, she says.

An employee who takes a $10,000 hardship withdrawal from his retirement account could have to pay out more than one-third of the money in taxes and early-withdrawal penalties, Edwards says.

In addition, she says, the withdrawal permanently would reduce the amount of money available to grow and compound. Assuming an average annual return of 8%, a 45-year-old employee who takes a $10,000 hardship withdrawal would reduce his account balance at age 65 by nearly $47,000, according to an analysis by Towers Perrin. A 35-year-old worker who takes a $10,000 hardship withdrawal would reduce her account balance at 65 by more than $100,000.

African Americans and Hispanics also are more likely to borrow money from their 401(k) plans than white and Asian workers, the study states.

Borrowing from a 401(k) plan won't hurt the employees' retirement savings if the worker repays the money, Hobson says.

But at a time when unemployment is rising, 401(k) loans have a significant downside. At most companies, employees are required to repay their loans when they leave the company, usually within 60 days. Otherwise, the loan becomes a withdrawal, triggering taxes and penalties. For most laid-off employees, repaying a 401(k) loan within that time period is virtually impossible, the study says.

Possible solutions

Various expert proposals for improving savings rates among minority groups include:

•Better information on minority participation. Encouraging companies to voluntarily collect and report 401(k) data on the race and ethnicity of participants could help employers look for ways to address the problem, Hobson says.

In 2004, McDonald's analyzed participation in its 401(k) plan and found that only half of African-American store managers contributed to the plan, says Rich Floersch, global chief human resources officer. This discovery led the company to start a program that gave store managers a one-time 1% raise and automatically contributed the money to the 401(k) plan, along with an increased company match. At the end of May 2009, 92% of African-American managers were in the plan. For whites and Hispanics, the participation rate was 94%.

•More flexible rules for 401(k) loans. Giving laid-off employees more time to repay their 401(k) loans would help African Americans and Hispanics retain their retirement savings, the study says. About 18% of companies currently offer loan-repayment options for employees who have lost their jobs, according to Towers Perrin.

But some financially strapped employers may be reluctant to implement more flexible repayment options because of administrative costs, says David Wray, president of the Profit Sharing/401k Council of America. "These companies are not set up to handle individual transactions. They're not banks," he says. "If I'm a company, and I'm laying people off, who am I going to have around to process checks?"

•More automatic enrollment. On average, companies that automatically enroll employees in 401(k) plans have an 82% participation rate, nearly 20% higher than those that don't have automatic enrollment, according to a 2008 study by Hewitt.

Most workers "tend to stick where you put them initially," which is why auto-enrollment is so effective, says Jack VanDerhei, research director at the Employee Benefit Research Institute.

In addition, automatically enrolling workers in target-date funds — which allocate contributions among stocks and bonds based on the worker's age — would encourage more young minorities to invest in stocks, Munnell says.

•More financial literacy programs. Hobson says making financial literacy part of the curriculum at public and private schools would go a long way toward closing the savings gaps among racial and ethnic groups.

"It's easier to take a class in wood shop or auto repair in this country than it is to take a class on financial literacy," she says. "The world has changed, and the education system needs to change with it."

Edited April 2, 2013 by Danno

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Again you are making race comparisons as if there are no other factors which determine a families household worth.

When you have such a high drop-out rate, such a high incarceration rate such a high rate of children being born without the stability that a married couple bring ... you must realize these actions have consequences. Also Net worth has a lot to do with "what you do with your money not what you make".

Your assessment seems to lack all proportion.

You say Obama was the first president to have a birth certificate request, ..... as if his circumstances where the same as Most Blacks in america, his was a bit unusual and when you mix politics into it, this is the result.

I have yet to hear you lament that George Bush had his military record ... not only taken apart but then fabricated and run on Prime-time prior to an election (IIRC).

I still say Obama has had a walk in the Park compared to Clinton.

It's typical behavior for a party to be more outraged when "The other team does something" which is why the indigestion the Left had about Bush's deficit.... evaporated when Obama did the same thing.

Forgive me but I really see this as -Politics as usual- more than any race issue.

I don't even meet people who dislike Obama, they just dislike his politics, can you say the same about Bush, Clinton Hillary, Gore Chenney?

I did bring up his record, check my last post, keep up Now show me the military record brigade.

Clinton didn't have folks attacking his grandparents death: http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2012/10/04/kitchenaid-attacks-obamas-grandmother-then-apologizes/

And Clinton didn't have folks screaming you lie when he was addressing congress.

[Karee 4,191]

I bring it up because it's never been an issue for any other president. And there has been some pretty nasty stuff out there. I say that because when we were in debt, in a war that a lot of folks didn't understand, no one said lets take our country back. Bush was painted as an idiot for a while, yet there was no request to see his college degree. His military record was in question, but there wasn't an entire movement about it.

Yeah but I doubt that the birth certificate thing has anything to do with his race. Look at all the stuff they threw at Clinton. People are still convinced he had that Vince Foster guy killed. I mean they pulled out the stops with Clinton. Whitewater, all of that.

Hell they even tried to say he cheated on his wife. Ohh... wait...

My point is that it comes with the territory. For people to automatically assume that he's the only president that's ever been treated unfairly because he is black, is just another way to deflect criticism. The birth certificate thing probably has more to do with his father being a dayum foreigner.

[Danno 1,228]

I did bring up his record, check my last post, keep up Now show me the military record brigade.

Clinton didn't have folks attacking his grandparents death: http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2012/10/04/kitchenaid-attacks-obamas-grandmother-then-apologizes/

And Clinton didn't have folks screaming you lie when he was addressing congress.

HOw does a stupid joke compare with books written about the First lady Do-in the State troopers in Arkansas?

Again for you, every comment, everything that is Anti-obama must be based in race.

I'm inclined to think you have not been that involved in politics because all this stuff is indicative to anyones experience in office.

[himher 634]

You really should do some more homework. By your accounts, slavery ended and it was a walk in the park for us. It wasn't that long ago that blacks and white were separated from eating in the same place. But let's look at the bigger picture. You, I and quite a few others have talked about the government creating a dependence so that minorities can stay in the places they are now. How do you get out from that? Danno once said all you have to do is graduate high school, join the military and make something of yourself. Sounds easy enough, except for the fact that kids are being shot and killed every single day in these neighborhoods. Babies for crying out loud. Look at the median income for a black family versus a white family:

The median household net worth for whites was $110,729 in 2010, versus $4,995 for blacks, according to recently released Census Bureau figures.http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/21/news/economy/wealth-gap-race/index.htm

We are always told that we hold ourselves back, and to a certain extent that is true. Ignorance, self loathing, contempt, and lack of drive due to a system designed to keep us in that place have seen us to it. 8 years ago you couldn't tell me we would elect a black president. Then folks say look at how far we've come, a black president. A man who holds the highest government office in the free world, who was forced to show his birth certificate, something no president in history had to do. And you have all these folks that talk about taking our country back. From what is the question, where did the country go? When Bush threw us in debt, people were upset, but did someone ever say, lets take the country back. And where was the Tea Party?

I did not say it was a walk in the park. I said the opposite a long time ago. It takes work, hard work, to build up from one place to a higher place. Granted I did say that I doubt that the work ethic is there but if it is then it can be done and it is done ALL THE TIME. As you, yourself, well know.

Immigrants of all races do it and they start with far less than a native citizen here is born with. Black, white, asian, latino - they all manage it and how? It's not because they are always welcomed with open arms that's for dam sure.

How far you've come is not measured by who you elect. Any mob can elect a fool to represent them and what have they achieved for it? What did the mobs of Rome achieve? Their own fall.

How far you've come is measured by the betterment of the generations that follow you and of the people around you. What the hell else are we here for if not that?

Median income is $55,412 for whites, $32,229 for blacks. Do you not realize the relationship between income and EDUCATION and that one follows the other? I bet your mother (who, after so many years in the school system, earns a nod from me) would have plenty to say about that. You know that education is also work and takes work yes?

Either way, the median household income in Kuala Lumpur or Jakarta is far less than the median income here and I guarantee you this - nothing that resembles anything like the cr-p that goes on in our inner cities, (which are small in comparison LOL), goes on in those two cities. If you think poverty and violence have a relationship you need to park your a$$ over there for awhile and watch, really watch, how those people go about their business and conduct themselves then come back and talk to me some more about poverty and violence. I know one thing - the people I know over there wouldn't trade their entire family structure for a monthly welfare check.

Edited April 2, 2013 by himher