Gun violence affects everyone

[Danno 1,228]

Why profile any US citizen. Its an infringement on their civil liberties IMO.

I tend to agree, however no one is being frisked simply because they are genetically in a category, they are stopping people who are doing something suspicious and when the cop makes this contact he frisks to insure his safely and this also has the effect of getting guns out of the wrong hands.

So lets not confuse this with classic-profiling.

[Danno 1,228]

The question is do they really stop people based on reasonable suspicion? The answer seems to be no at least part of the time. What percentage is that and what percentage is acceptable?

Those are good questions.

Trust me I am mindful that the rights you surrender for this situation or that can one day land on your doorstep too.

I think too often people get so mired in Principle they forget... when the Gov't can make a case (due to circumstances) to encroach on rights.... the courts usually goes along.

If this level of intercity murder continues with young people killing young people and anyone in the way, every one of these cities are going to copy this program.

Thats just reality.

[himher 634]

Why profile any US citizen. Its an infringement on their civil liberties IMO.

I did not say I support it because I don't however civil liberties come with a basic expectation and that expectation is following the basic rules of respect for the person and property of others that civilized people have to follow. Those viewed as uncivil are unfortunately viewed by the law as not entitled to civil liberties. Due to the high rates of uncivilized behaviour in and the choices of these communities to tolerate and yes celebrate and elevate it there is a strong possibility that these programs will be applied elsewhere.

Who pays? All of us will eventually.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

There are many, many thousands more victims murdered by their brothers and sisters in their own communities than were ever killed decades ago by those outside the community. The distant past, which none of us participated in or had anything to do with, neither triggers apology nor excuses the behaviour of the community in the present.

You're right, that justifies everything in the past.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

I reported my own post for posting the lynching photo. Moderation removed a similar pic in another thread. Reality is against TOS.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I reported my own post for posting the lynching photo. Moderation removed a similar pic in another thread. Reality is against TOS.

Good thing you came forward on your own before the ban hammer was dropped.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

Good thing you came forward on your own before the ban hammer was dropped.

It probably will be anyway, but I posted the pics in the same short time frame and don't want to be accused of ignoring the warning posted in the other thread. Whoever reported it must have missed the one in this thread.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Your answer here

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/analysis_and_planning/yearend2011enforcementreport.pdf

NOTE: 90% of the murder, rape, and other felony arrestees in NYC were black and hispanic.

See how that works? There are actually a lower percentage of black/hispanics stopped and frisked than the percent of the crimes that the black/hispanics committed.

SO: Why wouldnt they profile the groups that commit 90% of the crimes for the stop and frisk program?

90% of the crimes come from less than, by your numbers, 50% of the population. Sounds like some other places that have been brought up lately huh

I tend to agree, however no one is being frisked simply because they are genetically in a category, they are stopping people who are doing something suspicious and when the cop makes this contact he frisks to insure his safely and this also has the effect of getting guns out of the wrong hands.

So lets not confuse this with classic-profiling.

The question is do they really stop people based on reasonable suspicion? The answer seems to be no at least part of the time. What percentage is that and what percentage is acceptable?

I'll start from the top:

Himher: By your logic then, tell me something. If 90% of these crimes are committed by blacks and hispanics, and SAF has frisked every single black male and most of the hispanic males as well, why hasn't crime dropped below 5%? NYC should be crime free if that was the case. But it's not, what's being done wrong? Danno has pointed out that we are 6 times more likely to commit violent crime, and they are targeting us and hispanics exclusively, so why isn't NYC a paradise?

Danno: DId you read the numbers? Or even the article? Being black is suspicion enough for the NYPD. There was a story about a kid who was frisked over 60 times, you'd think they would get the message. From the NYPD: "Nearly nine out of 10 stopped-and-frisked New Yorkers have been completely innocent, according to the NYPD’s own reports." The truth is SAF wasn't created to stop crime, it was conceived to "instill fear in the black and hispanic community" : http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/04/01/lawmaker-kelly-wanted-stop-and-frisk-to-instill-fear-in-minorities/ What's even more sad is that over 90 percent of the folks stopped are children yet the practice continues. Race relations between minorities were strained at best, now they're torn to sheds because all you have to do is be a man of color and leave the house, you're suspicious.

Usui: This program targets minorities exclusively, that's the reason the 4th amendment doesn't come into play, if they widen the net and white new yorkers plus other races as well, it wouldn't last a month. Himher's and Danno's line of thought is since blacks commit crime, they should be targeted. But not all blacks and hispanic commit crimes.

[Danno 1,228]

Danno: DId you read the numbers? Or even the article? Being black is suspicion enough for the NYPD. There was a story about a kid who was frisked over 60 times, you'd think they would get the message. From the NYPD: "Nearly nine out of 10 stopped-and-frisked New Yorkers have been completely innocent, according to the NYPD’s own reports." The truth is SAF wasn't created to stop crime, it was conceived to "instill fear in the black and hispanic community" : http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/04/01/lawmaker-kelly-wanted-stop-and-frisk-to-instill-fear-in-minorities/ What's even more sad is that over 90 percent of the folks stopped are children yet the practice continues. Race relations between minorities were strained at best, now they're torn to sheds because all you have to do is be a man of color and leave the house, you're suspicious.

See you make some good points and if some of the numbers you produce are accurate, I can understand your position..... but too often you use certain phrases and terminology which are so misleading it calls into question you're ability to consider this fairly.

For instance you use the term "children" above. (over 90% of those frisked are children)

To most people a child is maybe 12 and under..... but I bet anything your age range for a child goes quite a bit further.

17 year old kid is not a child, a 21 year old is not a child, except for someone who wants to massage the numbers.

[spookyturtle 9,466]

See you make some good points and if some of the numbers you produce are accurate, I can understand your position..... but too often you use certain phrases and terminology which are so misleading it calls into question you're ability to consider this fairly.

For instance you use the term "children" above. (over 90% of those frisked are children)

To most people a child is maybe 12 and under..... but I bet anything your age range for a child goes quite a bit further.

17 year old kid is not a child, a 21 year old is not a child, except for someone who wants to massage the numbers.

From Mr. Objective himself.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

See you make some good points and if some of the numbers you produce are accurate, I can understand your position..... but too often you use certain phrases and terminology which are so misleading it calls into question you're ability to consider this fairly.

For instance you use the term "children" above. (over 90% of those frisked are children)

To most people a child is maybe 12 and under..... but I bet anything your age range for a child goes quite a bit further.

17 year old kid is not a child, a 21 year old is not a child, except for someone who wants to massage the numbers.

Here is the direct quote from the article I posted: Adams said the fact that he’s opposed to traumatizing innocent children doesn’t mean he is soft on crime.

“I’m an extremely hard liner on crime. If you commit crimes, you should go to jail. But children, over 90 percent of those children did nothing wrong at all. I don’t think we can get away from that – nothing,” said Adams.This isn't my terminology, it's the author. But here is the math, if there are 150,000+ black males in the city, they don't categorize the ages, and more than 168,000 were affected, one could conclude that teenagers under the age of 17 were affected.

[himher 634]

You're right, that justifies everything in the past.

Dam skippy I am right. Nothing in the past excuses what happens in the present.

Edited April 2, 2013 by himher

[himher 634]

I'll start from the top:

Himher: By your logic then, tell me something. If 90% of these crimes are committed by blacks and hispanics, and SAF has frisked every single black male and most of the hispanic males as well, why hasn't crime dropped below 5%? NYC should be crime free if that was the case. But it's not, what's being done wrong? Danno has pointed out that we are 6 times more likely to commit violent crime, and they are targeting us and hispanics exclusively, so why isn't NYC a paradise?

Danno: DId you read the numbers? Or even the article? Being black is suspicion enough for the NYPD. There was a story about a kid who was frisked over 60 times, you'd think they would get the message. From the NYPD: "Nearly nine out of 10 stopped-and-frisked New Yorkers have been completely innocent, according to the NYPD’s own reports." The truth is SAF wasn't created to stop crime, it was conceived to "instill fear in the black and hispanic community" : http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/04/01/lawmaker-kelly-wanted-stop-and-frisk-to-instill-fear-in-minorities/ What's even more sad is that over 90 percent of the folks stopped are children yet the practice continues. Race relations between minorities were strained at best, now they're torn to sheds because all you have to do is be a man of color and leave the house, you're suspicious.

Usui: This program targets minorities exclusively, that's the reason the 4th amendment doesn't come into play, if they widen the net and white new yorkers plus other races as well, it wouldn't last a month. Himher's and Danno's line of thought is since blacks commit crime, they should be targeted. But not all blacks and hispanic commit crimes.

I made no logic. I do not like stop and frisk any more than I like gun bans for the same reason. You asked why they profiled who they profile and I answered your question with factual (though somewhat disturbing - 90%? Are you kidding me?) data. 90% of those who are stopped and frisk are profiled from the community where 90% of the crimes originate.

Action / reaction. Stop and frisk was fairly earned by the targeted community.

NOTE: I don't know a lot about NYC but I dam sure know NYC isn't exactly built on plantation property as your friend spooky accuses the entire south. It must have been REALLY BAD at one time to force the city to incorporate that practice/policy.

[himher 634]

Exactly and they don't just cross the street, they so often have a moving van with em.

Those racists!

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

I made no logic. I do not like stop and frisk any more than I like gun bans for the same reason. You asked why they profiled who they profile and I answered your question with factual (though somewhat disturbing - 90%? Are you kidding me?) data. 90% of those who are stopped and frisk are profiled from the community where 90% of the crimes originate.

Action / reaction. Stop and frisk was fairly earned by the targeted community.

NOTE: I don't know a lot about NYC but I dam sure know NYC isn't exactly built on plantation property as your friend spooky accuses the entire south. It must have been REALLY BAD at one time to force the city to incorporate that practice/policy.

Oh I know why they target minorities, it's no secret. My thing is since they have targeted the group that commits the most crime as you point out, why hasn't it dropped? I mean they are catching folks as they are leaving the house to go to school and work, and if you're a minority they are going to frisk you. So, why hasn't crime rate drop below 5% if they are SAF every single black and brown person in the city?