Al Qaeda seeking nuclear kit for attacks-UK official

[Heracles 417]

Which justifies what exactly? Turning your country into a police state?

Sure as hell beats death...

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Which justifies what exactly? Turning your country into a police state?

Sure as hell beats death...

That sort of reasoning enabled the Nazis to carry out the holocaust.

[GaryC 7]

Which justifies what exactly? Turning your country into a police state?

Sure as hell beats death...

That sort of reasoning enabled the Nazis to carry out the holocaust.

Oh BULL SH!T Fishy!!! Your pompious attitude is really getting old here. We are not turning into Nazi Germany. To suggest such is insulting. Keep those inane comments to yourself.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Which justifies what exactly? Turning your country into a police state?

Sure as hell beats death...

That sort of reasoning enabled the Nazis to carry out the holocaust.

Oh BULL SH!T Fishy!!! Your pompious attitude is really getting old here. We are not turning into Nazi Germany. To suggest such is insulting. Keep those inane comments to yourself.

Hmmm did I suggest that we are turning into Nazi Germany? Nope I don't believe I did.

If you need me to clarify I was disputing Infidels suggestion that giving up all our civil rights "beats death". It doesn't. It enables it - hence the Holocaust

[Heracles 417]

Which justifies what exactly? Turning your country into a police state?

Sure as hell beats death...

That sort of reasoning enabled the Nazis to carry out the holocaust.

Seriously now, which part of Al Qaeda will not stop until the destruction or Europe and Co, especially the US, does one fail to understand? Just 5 years ago we saw the consequences of taking their threats for granted. Actually based on your Nazi example the same thing happened in Europe where people turned a blind eye and pretended there was no threat from Hitler. End result 50 million dead..

Did anyone watch CNN Headline at 7:00pm tonight, the Glen Beck show? This would have answered some of the questions on the growing hatred in Iran and other like minded nations. I believe the show is repeated throughout the night..

If you need me to clarify I was disputing Infidels suggestion that giving up all our civil rights "beats death". It doesn't. It enables it - hence the Holocaust

Are you seriously comparing the Jews being rounded up and slaughtered to being the same as a country tightening their security, to prevent millions of deaths?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Which justifies what exactly? Turning your country into a police state?

Sure as hell beats death...

That sort of reasoning enabled the Nazis to carry out the holocaust.

Seriously now, which part of Al Qaeda will not stop until the destruction or Europe and Co, especially the US, does one fail to understand? Just 5 years ago we saw the consequences of taking their threats for granted. Actually based on your Nazi example the same thing happened in Europe where people turned a blind eye and pretended there was no threat from Hitler. End result 50 million dead..

Did anyone watch CNN Headline at 7:00pm tonight, the Glen Beck show? This would have answered some of the questions on the growing hatred in Iran and other like minded nations. I believe the show is repeated throughout the night..

You suggested that "turning your country into a police state" is justifiable and preferable to death.

Which again... to go completely back to the beginning... justifies what, exactly?

[GaryC 7]

Which justifies what exactly? Turning your country into a police state?

Sure as hell beats death...

That sort of reasoning enabled the Nazis to carry out the holocaust.

Oh BULL SH!T Fishy!!! Your pompious attitude is really getting old here. We are not turning into Nazi Germany. To suggest such is insulting. Keep those inane comments to yourself.

Hmmm did I suggest that we are turning into Nazi Germany? Nope I don't believe I did.

If you need me to clarify I was disputing Infidels suggestion that giving up all our civil rights "beats death". It doesn't. It enables it - hence the Holocaust

It was clearly implied otherwise you wouldn't have posted it. I know your game. You make snide remarks and then when someone call you on it you say "thats not what I said". Intelectual BS. You think your so much smarter than us dumb Americans.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

All of you, go sit in your corners and shut up like good little Germans.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

No. I'm talking about group psychology. 6 million people essentially walked to their deaths and offered up no resistance. Some even collaborated with their captors, working in special teams to assist the SS in return for slightly better conditions, but with the unspoken agreement that you get put up against the wall after 30 days.

What's interesting is that if people had grouped together, the Nazis could never have carried out the genocide on the scale that they did.

There are at least two documented incidents where the prisoners rose up against the SS. They all died, but in doing so they did massive damage to the machinery of genocide. That aspect of human nature that made the people who didn't rise up put self first is what enabled their own deaths.

It was clearly implied otherwise you wouldn't have posted it. I know your game. You make snide remarks and then when someone call you on it you say "thats not what I said". Intelectual BS. You think your so much smarter than us dumb Americans.

No it wasn't Gary. See the bolded part for clarity.

Edited November 16, 2006 by erekose

[GaryC 7]

Are you seriously comparing the Jews being rounded up and slaughtered to being the same as a country tightening their security, to prevent millions of deaths?

No. I'm talking about group psychology. 6 million people essentially walked to their deaths and offered up no resistance. Some even collaborated with their captors, working in special teams to assist the SS in return for slightly better conditions, but with the unspoken agreement that you get put up against the wall after 30 days.

What's interesting is that if people had grouped together, the Nazis could never have carried out the genocide on the scale that they did.

There are at least two documented incidents where the prisoners rose up against the SS. They all died, but in doing so they did massive damage to the machinery of genocide. The aspect of human nature that those people put "self first" is what enabled their own deaths.

It was clearly implied otherwise you wouldn't have posted it. I know your game. You make snide remarks and then when someone call you on it you say "thats not what I said". Intelectual BS. You think your so much smarter than us dumb Americans.

No it wasn't Gary. See above.

If you are not implying it then why even mention the Nazi's? Your intent is to bring that mind-set into the conversation and plant that thought into peoples minds. I find it insulting. Putting into place security measures of the kind we have are to protect us, not to take away our freedoms. I have been living under those new protections since 9/11 and I am still as free as I was before. I don't feel oppressed or under some "big-brother" microscope. There are two possabilities here. Either your just paranoid and see government spies everywhere or your using this as a tool to extend your agenda. Get a grip man. The only ones that should worry about the security measures are the terrorists. All your doing is advocating for the bad guys.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If you are not implying it then why even mention the Nazi's? Your intent is to bring that mind-set into the conversation and plant that thought into peoples minds. I find it insulting. Putting into place security measures of the kind we have are to protect us, not to take away our freedoms. I have been living under those new protections since 9/11 and I am still as free as I was before. I don't feel oppressed or under some "big-brother" microscope. There are two possabilities here. Either your just paranoid and see government spies everywhere or your using this as a tool to extend your agenda. Get a grip man. The only ones that should worry about the security measures are the terrorists. All your doing is advocating for the bad guys.

Here's my answer to that question. Reposted from another thread:

Everyone should 'worry' about this. Its all well and good saying that "if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" but that requires an implicit trust in the government that it will not overstep the bounds of their authority, not just now, but in the future. And I'm not just talking about the Bush administration - corrupt and incompentant they may be, but that's beside the point. Its dangerous to weaken the institutions and principles of our democracy with these kinds of laws - because it leaves the way open for dangerous abuses by extremely unscrupulous and unethical people. There's a common "if it hasn't happened before, why should it happen now?" element to this - but clearly, whether it has or hasn't is irrelevant - by creating the possibility that it could.

Adolf Hitler, for example, completely deconstructed the constitution of the German state (the Weimar constitution) by the enactment of two pieces of legislation that effectively gave him ultimate power. That constitution BTW, is acknowledged to be one of the most democratic pieces of political legislation in the 20th century.... and we know how badly that whole thing ended...

So while you can feel secure in the knowledge that you won't be persecuted if you've done nothing wrong what happens when the definitions of "right and wrong" shift to include anyone who even hints at expressing a negative opinion about the government? That view, by the way, is one that already resonates with quite a lot of ordinary Americans - who label any political opposition to be disloyal or traitorous.

The reason I mentioned the Holocaust is because it illustrates the need to be politically active - to oppose oppressive measures that weaken our democratic freedoms.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I have been living under those new protections since 9/11 and I am still as free as I was before. I don't feel oppressed or under some "big-brother" microscope.

My only complaint is that they make me take my damn shoes off at the airport and then when I reach my destination, I open my web browser and read stories like this:

Screeners at Newark fail to find 'weapons'

Screeners at Newark Liberty International Airport failed 20 of 22 security tests conducted by undercover U.S. agents last week, missing an array of concealed bombs and guns at checkpoints throughout the hub's three terminals, federal security officials familiar with the results said.

Source: http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/b....xml&coll=1

If I felt the security measures actually worked, I wouldn't be so annoyed with them.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If you are not implying it then why even mention the Nazi's? Your intent is to bring that mind-set into the conversation and plant that thought into peoples minds. I find it insulting. Putting into place security measures of the kind we have are to protect us, not to take away our freedoms. I have been living under those new protections since 9/11 and I am still as free as I was before. I don't feel oppressed or under some "big-brother" microscope. There are two possabilities here. Either your just paranoid and see government spies everywhere or your using this as a tool to extend your agenda. Get a grip man. The only ones that should worry about the security measures are the terrorists. All your doing is advocating for the bad guys.

Here's my answer to that question. Reposted from another thread:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...41900&st=45

Everyone should 'worry' about this. Its all well and good saying that "if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" but that requires an implicit trust in the government that it will not overstep the bounds of their authority, not just now, but in the future. And I'm not just talking about the Bush administration - corrupt and incompentant they may be, but that's beside the point. Its dangerous to weaken the institutions and principles of our democracy with these kinds of laws - because it leaves the way open for dangerous abuses by extremely unscrupulous and unethical people. There's a common "if it hasn't happened before, why should it happen now?" element to this - but clearly, whether it has or hasn't is irrelevant - by creating the possibility that it could.

Adolf Hitler, for example, completely deconstructed the constitution of the German state (the Weimar constitution) by the enactment of two pieces of legislation that effectively gave him ultimate power. That constitution BTW, is acknowledged to be one of the most democratic pieces of political legislation in the 20th century.... and we know how badly that whole thing ended...

So while you can feel secure in the knowledge that you won't be persecuted if you've done nothing wrong what happens when the definitions of "right and wrong" shift to include anyone who even hints at expressing a negative opinion about the government? That view, by the way, is one that already resonates with quite a lot of ordinary Americans - who label any political opposition to be disloyal or traitorous.

The reason I mentioned the Holocaust is because it illustrates the need to be politically active - to oppose oppressive measures that weaken our democratic freedoms.

[GaryC 7]

If you are not implying it then why even mention the Nazi's? Your intent is to bring that mind-set into the conversation and plant that thought into peoples minds. I find it insulting. Putting into place security measures of the kind we have are to protect us, not to take away our freedoms. I have been living under those new protections since 9/11 and I am still as free as I was before. I don't feel oppressed or under some "big-brother" microscope. There are two possabilities here. Either your just paranoid and see government spies everywhere or your using this as a tool to extend your agenda. Get a grip man. The only ones that should worry about the security measures are the terrorists. All your doing is advocating for the bad guys.

Here's my answer to that question. Reposted from another thread:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...41900&st=45

Everyone should 'worry' about this. Its all well and good saying that "if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" but that requires an implicit trust in the government that it will not overstep the bounds of their authority, not just now, but in the future. And I'm not just talking about the Bush administration - corrupt and incompentant they may be, but that's beside the point. Its dangerous to weaken the institutions and principles of our democracy with these kinds of laws - because it leaves the way open for dangerous abuses by extremely unscrupulous and unethical people. There's a common "if it hasn't happened before, why should it happen now?" element to this - but clearly, whether it has or hasn't is irrelevant - by creating the possibility that it could.

Adolf Hitler, for example, completely deconstructed the constitution of the German state (the Weimar constitution) by the enactment of two pieces of legislation that effectively gave him ultimate power. That constitution BTW, is acknowledged to be one of the most democratic pieces of political legislation in the 20th century.... and we know how badly that whole thing ended...

So while you can feel secure in the knowledge that you won't be persecuted if you've done nothing wrong what happens when the definitions of "right and wrong" shift to include anyone who even hints at expressing a negative opinion about the government? That view, by the way, is one that already resonates with quite a lot of ordinary Americans - who label any political opposition to be disloyal or traitorous.

The reason I mentioned the Holocaust is because it illustrates the need to be politically active - to oppose oppressive measures that weaken our democratic freedoms.

More BS. Our constitution is being taken apart. There is nothing wrong with questioning what the government is doing but to draw compairsons to Nazi Germany is wrong and insulting. It looks like you fall into the paranoid class.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If you are not implying it then why even mention the Nazi's? Your intent is to bring that mind-set into the conversation and plant that thought into peoples minds. I find it insulting. Putting into place security measures of the kind we have are to protect us, not to take away our freedoms. I have been living under those new protections since 9/11 and I am still as free as I was before. I don't feel oppressed or under some "big-brother" microscope. There are two possabilities here. Either your just paranoid and see government spies everywhere or your using this as a tool to extend your agenda. Get a grip man. The only ones that should worry about the security measures are the terrorists. All your doing is advocating for the bad guys.

Here's my answer to that question. Reposted from another thread:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...41900&st=45

Everyone should 'worry' about this. Its all well and good saying that "if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" but that requires an implicit trust in the government that it will not overstep the bounds of their authority, not just now, but in the future. And I'm not just talking about the Bush administration - corrupt and incompentant they may be, but that's beside the point. Its dangerous to weaken the institutions and principles of our democracy with these kinds of laws - because it leaves the way open for dangerous abuses by extremely unscrupulous and unethical people. There's a common "if it hasn't happened before, why should it happen now?" element to this - but clearly, whether it has or hasn't is irrelevant - by creating the possibility that it could.

Adolf Hitler, for example, completely deconstructed the constitution of the German state (the Weimar constitution) by the enactment of two pieces of legislation that effectively gave him ultimate power. That constitution BTW, is acknowledged to be one of the most democratic pieces of political legislation in the 20th century.... and we know how badly that whole thing ended...

So while you can feel secure in the knowledge that you won't be persecuted if you've done nothing wrong what happens when the definitions of "right and wrong" shift to include anyone who even hints at expressing a negative opinion about the government? That view, by the way, is one that already resonates with quite a lot of ordinary Americans - who label any political opposition to be disloyal or traitorous.

The reason I mentioned the Holocaust is because it illustrates the need to be politically active - to oppose oppressive measures that weaken our democratic freedoms.

More BS. Our constitution is being taken apart. There is nothing wrong with questioning what the government is doing but to draw compairsons to Nazi Germany is wrong and insulting. It looks like you fall into the paranoid class.

So you say. I guess there's nothing to be learned from history - or should I say, "the pre-color TV era".