Israeli Apartheid Week

[OriZ 3,157]

From my own point of view, Israel made a huge leap of faith towards peace by giving the Gaza strip autonomy. This was a big opportunity for the Palestinians to show they can run their own affairs and live in peace with Israel. They have totally failed at running their own affairs or living in peace. Corruption ran rampant in the government of the Gaza Strip, launching rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip, armed incursions into Israel from the Gaza Strip, armed fighting between political factions in the Gaza Strip. Its been a complete and utter failure. Which makes me think, why would Israel want to attempt this again with even more territory? Why not just just keep allowing the settlements until there is no room for Palestinians and they are forced by economics to move elsewhere?

While I do not personally agree with continuing to expand the settlements...I will take this even further...take a look at what's happening in Syria. Can you imagine how much worse of a situation it would be for Israel had it given back the Golan Heights years ago? Anarchy would be sitting high above the Galilee able to snipe at whoever it wants(like the Syrian soldiers did before Israel occupied it). Look at what's happening in Egypt and how that's already endangered the fragile peace agreement. How can Israel be sure it isn't signing peace with someone today, giving up land that's vital to its security, just to find out tomorrow it brought its enemies closer. Until there is more stability in the region this is something that will be very hard to do, which is also why I added the three guarantors in my "sample peace agreement" in the other thread.

[Karee 4,191]

While I do not personally agree with continuing to expand the settlements...I will take this even further...take a look at what's happening in Syria. Can you imagine how much worse of a situation it would be for Israel had it given back the Golan Heights years ago? Anarchy would be sitting high above the Galilee able to snipe at whoever it wants(like the Syrian soldiers did before Israel occupied it). Look at what's happening in Egypt and how that's already endangered the fragile peace agreement. How can Israel be sure it isn't signing peace with someone today, giving up land that's vital to its security, just to find out tomorrow it brought its enemies closer. Until there is more stability in the region this is something that will be very hard to do, which is also why I added the three guarantors in my "sample peace agreement" in the other thread.

How exactly would they be giving up land that they are occupying illegally? That's like me stealing my neighbor's lawnmower and car, and then saying I'll give him his lawnmower back, but keep the car, in the interest of neighborhood harmony.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Karee

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

While I do not personally agree with continuing to expand the settlements...I will take this even further...take a look at what's happening in Syria. Can you imagine how much worse of a situation it would be for Israel had it given back the Golan Heights years ago? Anarchy would be sitting high above the Galilee able to snipe at whoever it wants(like the Syrian soldiers did before Israel occupied it). Look at what's happening in Egypt and how that's already endangered the fragile peace agreement. How can Israel be sure it isn't signing peace with someone today, giving up land that's vital to its security, just to find out tomorrow it brought its enemies closer. Until there is more stability in the region this is something that will be very hard to do, which is also why I added the three guarantors in my "sample peace agreement" in the other thread.

Great story ! However, Moshe Dayan already admitted that Israel occupied the Golan Heights in order to move settlers in and expand its territory, and not because of any provocation from Syria:

Along the Syria border there were no farms and no refugee camps — there was only the Syrian army... The kibbutzim saw the good agricultural land ... and they dreamed about it... They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land... We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.

- Moshe Dayan, speaking about pre-1967 clashes with the Syrians, in a 1976 interview with Rami Tal, as quoted in The New York Times and Associated Press reports (11 May 1997)

As for Israel's peace treaty with Egypt - well, Israel ought to be worried, because Israel has been in violation of that treaty since it signed it. However, it has the US sending plenty of bribe money to make sure Egypt doesn't do anything about it, and it looks like Morsi is not going to rock the boat. (Not just yet, anyway.)

It would be really, really smart for Israel to build diplomacy with its neighbors based on respect for them and for international law, rather than depend on bullying and bribes to get its way, using welfare money extracted from its BFF. Even if Israelis seem to have collective amnesia about what Israel has done, Arabs still remember it very well.

How exactly would they be giving up land that they are occupying illegally? That's like me stealing my neighbor's lawnmower and car, and then saying I'll give him his lawnmower back, but keep the car, in the interest of neighborhood harmony.

Zionism is the logic of the criminally insane.

[OriZ 3,157]

Somehow only when it pertains to Israel, occupied land turns into "illegally occupied" land. Land occupied in war is land occupied in war. Guess what? Most of the US was won by wars, and Mexico used to be a hell of a lot bigger than it is today.

at story ! However, Moshe Dayan already admitted that Israel occupied the Golan Heights in order to move settlers in and expand its territory, and not because of any provocation from Syria:

Read again. I never said it occupied it due to provocations, it was occupied in a war forced upon it. However, I was simply stating true facts(you can look it up) about incidents that took place before it was in Israel's posession.

As for Egypt, again you are deliberately ignoring the Egyptian violations. And once again, how can you build diplomacy with someone you don't know is going to be there tomorrow?

[JstaRebel 48]

The atrocity photo I posted featured only Palestinians. Both the men, the one riding the motorcycle and the freshly killed man (killed by fellow Palestinians, more precisely executed) being dragged behind it, were Palestinians from Gaza. So I am not sure why posting only for awareness regarding Israeli Apartheid and ignoring both sides of the problem get anywhere towards the goal of getting public outcry to end the madness.

The censors have spoken. A photo taken from the Washington Post has been scrubbed and the one sided discussion carries on.

However, the atrocity photo posted had nothing to do with 2013 IAW which is the topic of this thread, and was irrelevent. It's simply a horrible photo as you have described. Then someone could have posted a Palestinian father holding a child covered in blood after being shot by Israeli soldiers.. Then you could have posted another, and so on and so on... Please feel free to post photos relevent to the topic or join the conversation to insure all sides of this topic are included.

[Caryh 5,206]

The government of South Africa would have continued along its path if it were not for the international repercussions.

However, for Israel to continue on this path (continued settlement and annexation of the West Bank, making a Palestinian state impossible) leads to 3 choices:

1. Declare all Palestinians to be citizens of Israel, making Jews no longer the majority in Israel

2. Officially accept an Apartheid state, denying equal rights to at least half the population of the state

3. Go for another round of ethnic cleansing

Answers

1 - There are 7.5 million Jews in Israel, and 4 million Palestinians in the occupied territories. They would not be out numbered. At least until the Palestinians out bred them.

2 - As long as the territories are not part of Israel, then people in them are not part of the country. Keeping out non citizens is the right of any country.

3 - They need not ethnically cleanse if they don't wish to. They could just wash their hands of the lands. Turning the west bank back over to Jordan, and the Gaza strip to Egypt. Both controlled and ruled those areas prior to Israeli control. Letting Jordan and Egypt deal with them could easily solve their problems, and do you think for one second Jordan or Egypt would give up those lands if they were handed back? This kind of goes back to my question you never answered before, when was there ever a country of Palestine? As far as I'm aware, the region has been controlled or ruled by other countries back until the time it was nothing but city states. And even then it was often under the domination of empires.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Somehow only when it pertains to Israel, occupied land turns into "illegally occupied" land. Land occupied in war is land occupied in war. Guess what? Most of the US was won by wars, and Mexico used to be a hell of a lot bigger than it is today.

Haha why don't you just say - "Hey - South Africa got to have apartheid ! So it's Israel's right to have it, too !"

The modern world has agreed that the atrocities of the past are, well, atrocious, and ought not happen any more. The nations of the world (including Israel) signed international agreements not to conduct atrocities like ethnic cleansing or expansion of territory by force. Do you see India driving the North Sentinelese off their island so they can turn it into condos for Hindus ?

The US does not have millions of native Americans who were born here living in refugee camps just across the border, refused the right to come back, and held under military occupation. The US doesn't deny millions of native Americans who were born here the right to marry a person of another faith, or the right to buy a home in any neighborhood that they can afford. US public officials don't refer to Native Americans as "demographic threat" because they have too many babies. And etc. etc. etc.

It's not about what happened in 1600 or 1700 or 1800 - it's about what you're doing now.

The US ain't perfect, that's for sure - but it ain't no Apartheid Israel.

Read again. I never said it occupied it due to provocations, it was occupied in a war forced upon it. However, I was simply stating true facts(you can look it up) about incidents that took place before it was in Israel's posession.

As for Egypt, again you are deliberately ignoring the Egyptian violations. And once again, how can you build diplomacy with someone you don't know is going to be there tomorrow?

Forced on it ? What are you talking about ? Israel started the 1967 war (the war in which it occupied the Golan Heights.)

As for Egypt, again you are deliberately ignoring the Egyptian violations. And once again, how can you build diplomacy with someone you don't know is going to be there tomorrow?

Which Egyptian violations are you talking about ?

[OriZ 3,157]

F

orced on it ? What are you talking about ? Israel started the 1967 war (the war in which it occupied the Golan Heights.)

Had this discussion before. Not going back into it again. It can be found in other threads.

Which Egyptian violations are you talking about ?

Moving tanks into the demilitarized zone for one.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Answers

1 - There are 7.5 million Jews in Israel, and 4 million Palestinians in the occupied territories. They would not be out numbered. At least until the Palestinians out bred them.

Your numbers are incorrect. According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics:

5.978 million Jews

1.636 million Israeli Arabs

http://www1.cbs.gov.il/www/yarhon/b1_e.htm

And according to the CIA World Factbook:

1.710 million Palestinian Arabs in Gaza

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html

2.622 million Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/we.html

That equals a total of 5.968 million Palestinian Arabs in the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea - virtually equal to the 5.978 million Jews living in the area. And due to the high Palestinian birthrate, that equation tips increasingly toward an Arab majority as each year passes.

2 - As long as the territories are not part of Israel, then people in them are not part of the country. Keeping out non citizens is the right of any country.

Israel is illegally occupying the West Bank and Gaza. It has no right to impose any legal jurisdictions on the population there, much less create, operate and enforce an Apartheid system of rules and regulations for people living there, based entirely on whether or not they are Jews.

3 - They need not ethnically cleanse if they don't wish to. They could just wash their hands of the lands. Turning the west bank back over to Jordan, and the Gaza strip to Egypt. Both controlled and ruled those areas prior to Israeli control. Letting Jordan and Egypt deal with them could easily solve their problems, and do you think for one second Jordan or Egypt would give up those lands if they were handed back?

Jordan already "gave up" those lands to the Palestinians - it formally ceded any claim to the West Bank to the PLO in 1988. And Israel's peace treaty with Egypt specifically states that Israel will remove its military and its colonies from the occupied territories including Gaza, in order to stop obstructing the creation of an independent Palestinian state. Israel was supposed to have done that in the 5-year period after the treaty was signed; instead (fearless in the knowledge that its azz would be covered by the US) it stepped up its illegal settlements.

This kind of goes back to my question you never answered before, when was there ever a country of Palestine? As far as I'm aware, the region has been controlled or ruled by other countries back until the time it was nothing but city states. And even then it was often under the domination of empires.

I didn't bother with this line earlier, as I've answered it many times on this site. It's part of a very frayed and worn set of pointless hasbara questions that are intended to delegitimatize the idea of an independent Palestinian state, and even Palestinians themselves (at least you didn't use the quote marks.)

In short - there are a lot of countries that exist today that did not exist 75 years ago, including Israel (despite the fairy tales about ancient wonders.) States don't have rights; people have rights. And one of those rights is the right to self-determination - this is another lofty concept that Israel formally agreed to in international conventions, but denies in practice to the Palestinians.

So whether or not an independent Palestinian state existed in the past is simply irrelevant to the issue of there being an independent Palestinian state today.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Had this discussion before. Not going back into it again. It can be found in other threads.

Well it seems you didn't want to learn anything from those threads, as you're still making the same erroneous claims.

Moving tanks into the demilitarized zone for one.

Give some specifics.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Give some specifics.

Perhaps he is talking about when the UN peacekeeping forces (UNEFII) vacated their observation positions in the Sinai, and Egyptian forces took over those same positions, well within Egyptian territory.

[JstaRebel 48]

Somehow only when it pertains to Israel, occupied land turns into "illegally occupied" land. Land occupied in war is land occupied in war. Guess what? Most of the US was won by wars, and Mexico used to be a hell of a lot bigger than it is today.

If I'm not mistaken, East Jerusalem was "Annexed" by Israel as was the Golan Heights and is not "land occupied in war". Also, this "annexation" was not only never recognized by a single country, it was deemed "null and void" by the United Nations Security Council which is probably why they are looked at worldwide as "Illegal". I understand that Israel prefers to have these lands referred to as "disputed territories".

I'm wanting to be clear regarding your statement OriZ. Is it your position that land won in a war belongs to the winner no matter what ramifications befall said lands inhabitants?

[JstaRebel 48]

The atrocity photo I posted featured only Palestinians. Both the men, the one riding the motorcycle and the freshly killed man (killed by fellow Palestinians, more precisely executed) being dragged behind it, were Palestinians from Gaza. So I am not sure why posting only for awareness regarding Israeli Apartheid and ignoring both sides of the problem get anywhere towards the goal of getting public outcry to end the madness.

The censors have spoken. A photo taken from the Washington Post has been scrubbed and the one sided discussion carries on.

With regards to Censorship and Israel Aparthied;

Israel denies visas to 5 artists seeking to perform with Freedom Theatre. Palestinians struggle every day simply for the right to cultural expression and survival, a battle that is frequently overlooked by international artists and certainly ignored by most Israeli performers. Just this week, Israel denied visas to five artists from the Arab world who were planning to join with The Freedom Theatre and other Palestinian artists in performances supporting the Walk for Water Justice on March 22.What, you may ask, does Israel have to do with a Palestinian community arts and education festival? Well, of course, Israel is the ultimate censor of what Palestinians may see and may not see. Under occupation, art is subject to the Israeli Civil Administration's decisions as to whether the artist should appear.

[Karee 4,191]

Somehow only when it pertains to Israel, occupied land turns into "illegally occupied" land. Land occupied in war is land occupied in war. Guess what? Most of the US was won by wars, and Mexico used to be a hell of a lot bigger than it is today.

If I'm not mistaken, East Jerusalem was "Annexed" by Israel as was the Golan Heights and is not "land occupied in war". Also, this "annexation" was not only never recognized by a single country, it was deemed "null and void" by the United Nations Security Council which is probably why they are looked at worldwide as "Illegal". I understand that Israel prefers to have these lands referred to as "disputed territories".

I'm wanting to be clear regarding your statement OriZ. Is it your position that land won in a war belongs to the winner no matter what ramifications befall said lands inhabitants?

Also, I believe when the U.S. annexed land, they didn't build any walls. They also gave those people the right to vote. So if Oriz wants to compare the two, how about tearing down the walls and giving everyone in the occupied territories the right to vote?

What shocks me even more about this situation. is the U.S. support for this ethnic cleansing campaign. I guess it says alot about the intelligence of the average American voter. But that's another topic.

Also, I have no skins in this game. My personal belief is that any organized religion is a farce. The bottom line is that people are being slowly pushed off their land and out of their houses and no one really seems to care. That's bull$hit, I don't care what religion you are.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

There have been many military occupations which have not been deemed illegal by international law. That is because they serve some purpose in the interests of peace and security, as codified and clarified in the Hague Conventions and the Fourth Geneva Convention, as well as the UN Charter.

But the UN, like most international legal experts, is well aware that Israel's occupation is not for security purposes, but rather to facilitate several violations of international law - including the forced dispossession, displacement and expulsion of the Palestinian civilian population, the illegal transfer of Israel's civilian population into the occupied land, and Israel's attempts to effect a defacto annexation of that land into Israel's territory.