Israeli Apartheid Week

[Karee 4,190]

The Palestinians are just going to keep loosing ground until there's close to nothing to hold for an independent state.

I'd say it's pretty much reached that point now. If you go by some of the maps WoM has posted anyway.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

one post removed for

You mean the photo from the 2012 Gaza Anti-Israeli Apartheid parade?

[JstaRebel 48]

The poll is probably accurate, hence the need for more awareness of what is happening in the Middle East. If all people in the US rely on is what they see in the media, and how non-Israelis in the region are portrayed by Hollywood, you couldn't expect them to come to any other conclusion. Step outside the US and you get a much different bias.

The problems with any polls are that most neglect to share one important thing. Demographics. How many people were polled? What were there ages, gender, nationalities, religous beliefs, ect.. IMHO, All polls are designed to fit into a certain political catagory so as to try and influence a large number of peoples opinions for the purpose of furthering a single agenda. This is why for instance, when I see a poll stating that Obama's approval rating is either high or low I don't pay much attention to it. What should matter to me most.. What others think of the job he is doing or what kind of job I think he is doing?

Even if a poll is accurate, I prefer to base my opinions on factual information that I have researched myself so that I can draw my own conclusions and not be swayed by "popular opinion".

[JstaRebel 48]

Ok I guess I realized it was a Gallup poll by looking at the first. Personally, I don't think the leaders on either side want peace. At one time maybe, but not any longer. The Palestinians are just going to keep loosing ground until there's close to nothing to hold for an independent state.

Unfortunately Caryh, I agree with you. There has been so much hatred going back and fourth for so many years, that it seems unlikly anything will change in the near future. This is why IMHO, raising awareness through international events like IAW is so important. It shows the other side of the story that most never see because of bias within the media, and drawing attention to both sides of this continuing atrocity is so important if there is ever going to be a resolution. Sooner or later, both sides are going to need to "Turn the other cheek"

[JstaRebel 48]

You mean the photo from the 2012 Gaza Anti-Israeli Apartheid parade?

This is exactly my point with refrence to my last post. What good does posting gruesome photos do other than add fuel to an already existing inferno? One side posts then the other side posts another gruesome photo, and it goes on and on.. Both sides have commited unspeakable atrocities against the other.

Unfortunately, everyone does not know this which is why raising public awareness through organized movements such as Israel Apartheid Week are so important. Possibly with enough public outcry to put an end to all of this madness, things will change..

[OriZ 3,157]

Unfortunately Caryh, I agree with you. There has been so much hatred going back and fourth for so many years, that it seems unlikly anything will change in the near future. This is why IMHO, raising awareness through international events like IAW is so important. It shows the other side of the story that most never see because of bias within the media, and drawing attention to both sides of this continuing atrocity is so important if there is ever going to be a resolution. Sooner or later, both sides are going to need to "Turn the other cheek"

This is exactly my point with refrence to my last post. What good does posting gruesome photos do other than add fuel to an already existing inferno? One side posts then the other side posts another gruesome photo, and it goes on and on.. Both sides have commited unspeakable atrocities against the other.

Unfortunately, everyone does not know this which is why raising public awareness through organized movements such as Israel Apartheid Week are so important. Possibly with enough public outcry to put an end to all of this madness, things will change..

You really need to learn to put your money where your mouth is. You keep trying to talk the talk saying "both sides committed atrocities" but at the end of the day this is only about "Israel Apartheid Week"...unless I'm blind I can only see one name in there.

[JstaRebel 48]

You really need to learn to put your money where your mouth is. You keep trying to talk the talk saying "both sides committed atrocities" but at the end of the day this is only about "Israel Apartheid Week"...unless I'm blind I can only see one name in there.

If I'm not mistaken, that is the original topic of this thread.. Please feel free to join in on the conversations.

[Caryh 5,206]

If I'm not mistaken, that is the original topic of this thread.. Please feel free to join in on the conversations.

From my own point of view, Israel made a huge leap of faith towards peace by giving the Gaza strip autonomy. This was a big opportunity for the Palestinians to show they can run their own affairs and live in peace with Israel. They have totally failed at running their own affairs or living in peace. Corruption ran rampant in the government of the Gaza Strip, launching rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip, armed incursions into Israel from the Gaza Strip, armed fighting between political factions in the Gaza Strip. Its been a complete and utter failure. Which makes me think, why would Israel want to attempt this again with even more territory? Why not just just keep allowing the settlements until there is no room for Palestinians and they are forced by economics to move elsewhere?

[Karee 4,190]

From my own point of view, Israel made a huge leap of faith towards peace by giving the Gaza strip autonomy. This was a big opportunity for the Palestinians to show they can run their own affairs and live in peace with Israel. They have totally failed at running their own affairs or living in peace. Corruption ran rampant in the government of the Gaza Strip, launching rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip, armed incursions into Israel from the Gaza Strip, armed fighting between political factions in the Gaza Strip. Its been a complete and utter failure. Which makes me think, why would Israel want to attempt this again with even more territory? Why not just just keep allowing the settlements until there is no room for Palestinians and they are forced by economics to move elsewhere?

Kinda tough to run a government when there's a blockade in place where no goods can enter or leave without approval from your oppressors. Also would be nice to be able to collect taxes and duties, but of course the Israeli govt. confiscates those as well.

So I guess to the outside world it seems that the Gaza strip has "autonomy," when in reality they really don't. This way the Israeli govt. can run around the world and say "Look what we did. We gave them what they wanted, and they can't even run their own affairs." I gotta give the Israeli govt. credit. They are masters of propaganda. Goebbels would have been proud of a propaganda machine like the one they have running. They are the eternal victim in all matters.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

From my own point of view, Israel made a huge leap of faith towards peace by giving the Gaza strip autonomy. This was a big opportunity for the Palestinians to show they can run their own affairs and live in peace with Israel. They have totally failed at running their own affairs or living in peace. Corruption ran rampant in the government of the Gaza Strip, launching rockets into Israel from the Gaza Strip, armed incursions into Israel from the Gaza Strip, armed fighting between political factions in the Gaza Strip. Its been a complete and utter failure. Which makes me think, why would Israel want to attempt this again with even more territory? Why not just just keep allowing the settlements until there is no room for Palestinians and they are forced by economics to move elsewhere?

Your synopsis is pretty representative of what most Americans think they know about Gaza, due to the execrable media coverage. I've already gone through this before, so I will just quote one of my earlier posts:

First of all, most of the people of Gaza are refugees - Palestinian families driven from their homes by Zionist terror gangs and militias in 1947-1948, and then again by the Israeli army in 1967. Some of them live within sight of their homes and property, now seized by Israel. The tiny Gaza Strip, with 1.6 million people jammed into 146 square miles (about 25 miles long by 5 to 7 miles wide) is now one of the most crowded places in the world.

The transformation of Gaza into what it is today - the world’s largest concentration camp - began decades ago, long before there was a Hamas or any rockets. After the 1967 occupation, Israel put stringent restrictions on Gaza’s exports and commercial production. It was a calculated move to turn the Gaza Strip into a captive market, totally dependent on Israeli products, and a cheap labor pool dependent on work in or for Israel. The Israeli term for it was “economic warfare.” It later built a series of fences around the Strip, so that all entry or exit could be controlled by Israel (even along the Egyptian border - Israel controlled those checkpoints as well.)

Hamas developed in the 1990s, and Israel actually helped fund and support it in the early days, thinking that it would serve as a rival to Yasser Arafat’s Fatah and help keep the Palestinians divided. Israel also liked the fact that Hamas was a Muslim organization (Fatah was secular) because that fed into Israel’s propaganda that the conflict was a religious one of Muslim vs. Jew, rather than what it is: a conflict over Israel’s ethnic cleansing, and its illegal occupation and annexation of Palestinian territory.

In 2005, Ariel Sharon (Likud) decided to unilaterally “disengage” from Gaza, pulling Israel’s 8000 settlers out of Gaza, and destroying the homes and farms it left behind. Sharon presented this withdrawal to the world as a “painful concession” in the interest of peace. In reality, it was a show designed to strengthen Israel’s control of the West Bank. “See - we gave up Gaza. Now we just want to keep these ever-expanding settlements in the West Bank.“ The few thousand illegal settlers in Gaza were always a drop in the bucket compared to the number Israel has in the West Bank, which now total more than half a million.

The world was treated to compelling images of tearful Israeli settlers leaving Gaza; however, quite a few of them were actually extremists from the illegal West Bank settlements of Kiryat Arba, etc., arriving on the scene in the final days to perform for the TV cameras.

After the "disengagement," Israel promptly moved many of the Gaza settlers, along with tens of thousands more, into illegal settlements in the West Bank.

Once its settlers were cleared out from Gaza, Israel further tightened the closures on the Strip and began to attack much more forcefully, now able to terrorize the inhabitants with the full might of its considerable arsenal, without any worries of hitting their own people. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

You‘ve heard the hasbara: “See - we gave up Gaza. And now all we get are rockets in return.”

In fact, Israel began tormenting Gaza long before Hamas existed, and has continued tormenting them. Israel's plan is to continue until all the Palestinians in Gaza can be squeezed out into Egypt or points beyond - then Israel will immediately annex the territory. With feeble response from the international community, Hamas was the only thing standing in its way.

So on to Hamas. In the first half of the 2000s, Hamas started making the transformation from militant resistance group to more of a mainstream political party, and began to run for legislative offices. It moderated its policies, ending suicide bombings, and making moves toward acceptance of a two-state solution based on the pre-1967 armistice lines (the so-called “Green Line,” the borders recognized by the international community.)

In 2006, Hamas swept to a political majority in the Palestinian legislature, in an election certified as free and fair by international observers - it was even called the most democratic election in the Arab world. U.S. President George W. Bush had publicly welcomed Hamas’ participation in the campaign phase, even though he had been advised by all experts on all sides that Hamas would likely win, in a landslide. And that’s exactly what happened.

After a short stunned pause, the U.S. (along with/led by Israel) threw a temper tantrum, refusing to recognize the new government, and then tried to back a covert coup in Gaza to be carried out by the losers (Fatah.) Israel immediately launched operations to kidnap and imprison more than 60 elected Hamas members of the legislature in the West Bank. The attempted coup in Gaza was quickly stamped out by Hamas, but Fatah was able to seize control of the legislature in the West Bank and despite losing the election, was promptly recognized by the U.S. and Israel as the legitimate government of the Palestinians.

Since then, you’ve heard non-stop noise from Israel demonizing Hamas as simply a terror group, and the U.S. and E.U. joined Israel in trying to strangle Hamas by withholding Palestinians’ own tax revenues as well as foreign aid, knowing full well it would throw the 1.6 million people living in the Gaza Strip into an even worse humanitarian crisis.

What Israel really doesn’t like about Hamas is not about the rockets, which are a minor irritation that have killed far fewer people per year than traffic accidents in Israel (about 41 people since 2001, some of whom are soldiers, and quite a few of whom are actually Palestinian citizens of Israel - "Israeli Arabs.") what Israel really can't stand is that Hamas won’t agree to Israel’s terms - that Israel get to keep the illegal settlements in the West Bank, keep control of a huge swath of the West Bank along the Jordan border, keep control of Palestine’s airspace and coast, keep control of its water resources, etc. etc. This is what Israel cannot abide in any Palestinian government.

Israel had many cease-fires with Hamas in Gaza; Israel is almost always the first to break them. And ultimately, it was Israel that broke the cease-fire in November 2008, on purpose, in order to launch Cast Lead, which it had planned in advance for more than six months. This was supposed to be the final extermination of Hamas, no matter what the cost in Palestinian civilian lives. It also served as a price-tag operation, to assuage Israel’s wounded pride about the utter failure of its war against Hezbollah in 2006. In an assault that lasted 22 days, Israel slaughtered more than 1400 Palestinians in Gaza, including more than 350 children. But it completely failed to oust Hamas.

This is a longer article about what Israel has done to Gaza written by Avi Shlaim, an Oxford professor of international relations who served in the Israeli army. It’s a good read for anyone who has heard Israel's side, but would like to hear the other side of the story - and not just from me.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

Short history of Gaza

Edited March 18, 2013 by wife_of_mahmoud

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Why not just just keep allowing the settlements until there is no room for Palestinians and they are forced by economics to move elsewhere?

I meant to add - this is exactly what is happening. This has been a key part of Zionist strategy since the early days - it was being discussed since the beginning of the 20th century.

Edited March 18, 2013 by wife_of_mahmoud

[ready4ONE 5,400]

This is exactly my point with refrence to my last post. What good does posting gruesome photos do other than add fuel to an already existing inferno? One side posts then the other side posts another gruesome photo, and it goes on and on.. Both sides have commited unspeakable atrocities against the other.

Unfortunately, everyone does not know this which is why raising public awareness through organized movements such as Israel Apartheid Week are so important. Possibly with enough public outcry to put an end to all of this madness, things will change..

The atrocity photo I posted featured only Palestinians. Both the men, the one riding the motorcycle and the freshly killed man (killed by fellow Palestinians, more precisely executed) being dragged behind it, were Palestinians from Gaza. So I am not sure why posting only for awareness regarding Israeli Apartheid and ignoring both sides of the problem get anywhere towards the goal of getting public outcry to end the madness.

The censors have spoken. A photo taken from the Washington Post has been scrubbed and the one sided discussion carries on.

[Caryh 5,206]

I meant to add - this is exactly what is happening. This has been a key part of Zionist strategy since the early days - it was being discussed since the beginning of the 20th century.

Of course I know that is precisely whats going on. But why should they do any differently? What is any positive to Israel for doing anything else? Will they have a friendly neighbor? Will their borders be more secure? The economic advantages of controlling that land are obvious. What I don't see is any reason at all why it would be in their interest to do anything else, but follow their current path until all the Palestinians leave or quit fighting it.

[Karee 4,190]

What I don't see is any reason at all why it would be in their interest to do anything else, but follow their current path until all the Palestinians leave or quit fighting it.

Bingo!

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Of course I know that is precisely whats going on. But why should they do any differently? What is any positive to Israel for doing anything else? Will they have a friendly neighbor? Will their borders be more secure? The economic advantages of controlling that land are obvious. What I don't see is any reason at all why it would be in their interest to do anything else, but follow their current path until all the Palestinians leave or quit fighting it.

The government of South Africa would have continued along its path if it were not for the international repercussions.

However, for Israel to continue on this path (continued settlement and annexation of the West Bank, making a Palestinian state impossible) leads to 3 choices:

1. Declare all Palestinians to be citizens of Israel, making Jews no longer the majority in Israel

2. Officially accept an Apartheid state, denying equal rights to at least half the population of the state

3. Go for another round of ethnic cleansing

(Note that slow-motion ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians - encouraging flight/emigration by strangling their economy and making life generally as miserable as possible - is not yet outpacing the Palestinian birthrate. So if making Choice #3, Israel would have to step up to something more drastic.)

All but the first choice would result in international sanctions. And the first choice would mean the end of Israel as a Jewish-majority state.

Those who want Israel to be around in 50 years (or even 25 years) see the problem with Israel's current course - it's self-destruction. And this is why they think Israel ought to change its course.

However, the leadership of Israel is betting the ranch on the fantasy that all or at least most of the Palestinians can somehow be induced to go away, and that Israel will wind up with all that extra territory once it is Muslim-free.

However, Israel already was given 2 chances to drive the Palestinians out en-masse (in 1948 and 1967) and did not manage to complete the job. I don't think it will be given a 3rd chance.