Accidental Claim to US Citizenship back in 1988

[Okalian 41]

Then you have to go through the lineup of untrained clerks and several layers of supervision that have no clue what to do next because you are the FIRST one that ever said "no" to that question in all 7 weeks of their employment and they were never trained WHAT to do for THAT!

You're absolutely right...

[NickD 203]

Then she hit me with it. Back in 1988 this girl thought that since she's married that she's automatically a US citizen.

Perhaps I am sympathetic to this girl, because I was in the same boat myself when I asked my wife to marry me. Was born in the USA, served my country for six years, and never even heard about immigration nor the USCIS. Even asked all of my friends and relatives if they knew what the USCIS was, none of them ever heard of this agency. But sure had a lot to learn in a hurry, and reading all those fines, five years in prison, created a deal of paranoia. Guided my two girls in every step of the way.

Question is, with all the information provided, and the circumstances involved, how will the USCIS deal with this issue, was any major crime committed?

Willing to bet a full cup of coffee, with 80 different field offices, and managers, even more IO's may even get 80 different replies and results. It's how these offices differ so much that can make a huge difference in the outcome.

This can be resolved in a court of law with even more variations depending upon how good your attorney's are, the judge, and the jury. Just look at the many that received the death sentence, were executed, but were later proved innocent. Granted, stuff like this should have never have happened in the first place, but it does. When you do come here, no such things a huge signs posting the consequences. So forced in some cases to learn this the hard way.

None of us are in a position to judge, none of us know all of the facts.

A bit off topic, in Wisconsin, could always carry side arms like Roy Rogers without any kind of permit. But can not carry a weapon like James Bond hidden away in your pocket.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Just look at the many that received the death sentence, were executed, but were later proved innocent.

How many is that in the US? Zero.

[soulprovider915 4]

maybe my math is messed up help me get on track members

The permit was definitely issued in 1988

It has since expired on 02/2013

permit is typically valid for 5 YEARS.

88 till 2013 i think little more then 5 years?

I'm originally from PA. I thought that was kind of funny that it was valid for 25 years. I will speak to her more on Saturday to try and get the truth and more details.

[NickD 203]

How many is that in the US? Zero.

In the US, at least 15 since 1992, average of wrong convictions in the US is at least 1%. The statistics are very weak on this subject, only those with sufficient funds could afford to defend their innocence. In particular Blacks in the south.

But this is not my point, too many on this post are prejudging without sufficient knowledge nor evidence. These are the kind of people that are responsible for at least that one percent of wrongful convictions. Do you fit into this group?

[Villanelle 4,122]

I'm originally from PA. I thought that was kind of funny that it was valid for 25 years. I will speak to her more on Saturday to try and get the truth and more details.

Its not valid for 25 years. Theyre only valid for 5 years.

This originally started in 1988. Its not surprising she obtained a permit in 1988. Prior to 1987, almost every state in America either prohibited the carrying of concealed handguns or only issued permits under a system that gave officials broad discretionary power over the decision on whether or not to grant a permit. Then the rules changed.

The new rules stated- that the government must grant the permit as soon as you can satisfy the objective licensing criteria. So a flood of permits were issued.

All she needed back then (and still currently) in PA was ID, two references, the form and the fee. She would have had to go down in person and fill it out, bring a photo and wait 45 days for the background check to be done.

She couldve checked off alien and provided her GC and obtained the permit. It wouldve been issued. The permit wouldve been valid for 5 years. Every 5 years she would have had to go down in person and renew it. Each time she would have to pay to renew it and sign the form that her information is the same. Each time they run a background check. Each time she signs. Each time shes certifying her info is correct.

If initially she was an LPR and had become a citizen since, she couldve changed it on the form, prior to signing it, as the form wouldve been incorrect. Same thing if she had moved, or changed her hair color or her weight changed significantly.

From the limited information available in the original post it seems as if the woman simply renewed the permit which was issued incorrectly as a citizen over and over again.

This would mean she made a false claim of citizenship once on the initial application and 4 times on renewal forms. Each incident is going to be documented as background checks were done each time with the FBI.

She can attempt to contact the Sheriffs office that issued her the permit and attempt have them correct the permit even though its expired. They may prosecute her for the false information. According to PA law, she could be fined 1k each incident totaling 5k.

That however is not going to erase the record in the FBI system where it shows she had the permit and she was 'scanned' as a citizen, nor this whole debacle. It needs to be disclosed on her N-400 and her chances for approval after all this were discussed in prior posts.

[Villanelle 4,122]

Here is a picture of what the concealed carry permit looks like in PA. Her last permit wouldve been issued in 2008. It wouldve been valid from 08-13. It clearly says on it citizen or not. If youre not a citizen it says what country youre from.

She wouldve have to claim that she was still under the impression she was a citizen in 2008 when she renewed it, because the card she received clearly states its a citizen ID card.

http://www.usacarry.com/pennsylvania_concealed_carry_permit_information.html

[TBoneTX 45,777]

She needs to beat a path to a SHARP immigration attorney, si man.

[everafter0509 1]

And she does not know where the gun is? Wow

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

In the US, at least 15 since 1992, average of wrong convictions in the US is at least 1%. The statistics are very weak on this subject, only those with sufficient funds could afford to defend their innocence. In particular Blacks in the south.

But this is not my point, too many on this post are prejudging without sufficient knowledge nor evidence. These are the kind of people that are responsible for at least that one percent of wrongful convictions. Do you fit into this group?

The rule about claiming false citizenship is clear. You can't. She did.

She will not be prosecuted, she will be deported.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Gary and Alla

[NickD 203]

The rule about claiming false citizenship is clear. You can't. She did.

She will not be prosecuted, she will be deported.

Looking at that concealed weapon certificate, either she was very poor with English or was in a life threatening situation. It does kind of rule out an accidental pre-checked box. If coming here into a life threatening situation, maybe she would be better off getting deported. But there are other ways to deal with that.

[Donna & Paul 4]

Some privileges require additional checks for non-citizens. For example, when Alla purchased firearms she had to show she had been a resident of Vermont for at least three months prior to the purchase. We did that with bank statements with our address. That WAS a federal law for LPRs to buy firearms. It was just recently changed (after Alla became a citizen)so they do not have to show any more proof of residency than a citizen now...drivers license for example.

Vermont DMV requires a waiting period to check the validity of an LPRs documents, but they give you a temporary "paper" license while they do that and the official license comes in a week or so.

What it means is there ARE reasons that it makes a difference in processing, though not in final result, but ANY claim to citizenship disqualifies a person if they are not a citizen. The OP in question would have been issued a concealed carry license anyway but maybe it would have been delayed a few weeks or something and they did not want to wait.

Paul and I have been very patient with extra checks. We realize that because he wasn't born here we are asking for privileges that will require extra time to process. And they are, indeed, privileges. It's not the extra checks we've been baffled by. It's that in almost every instance when we inquire as to how to go about obtaining the privilege or if it's even afforded a non-citizen if we get differing and largely conflicting information among the officials of the same organization. For example, at the DMV, Paul went in to ask how he could get a driver's license AS a non-citizen. The lady(aforementioned 7 weaker) gave him a rehearsed answer and a piece of paper telling him what documents he needed - if he were a citizen. Okay, she's really just the desk person and probably doesn't know, and maybe didn't even understand what he asked through his thick English accent. So we rang up the state office and they told us what he needed. He'd have to start from scratch basically. Get a learner's permit, provide the appropriate documents and so forth. No problem. We gather all the documentation and go out prepared to get a learner's permit. They gave him a driver's exam and issued him a class C driver's permit. At this point, as we go through this as pretty much every venue, we find it amusing.

[Villanelle 4,122]

Looking at that concealed weapon certificate, either she was very poor with English or was in a life threatening situation. It does kind of rule out an accidental pre-checked box. If coming here into a life threatening situation, maybe she would be better off getting deported. But there are other ways to deal with that.

Well actually thats the permit card you receive not the application. Im sure I can dig up the actual application somewhere or have someone there scan over one, but I dont think its needed for the thread. Its basically the same everywhere- boxes that you fill in your name, height, weight address etc and check off citizen or alien and if alien provide your a#.

The OP already stated the woman thought she was a citizen based upon her marriage so she checked off citizen on the application in 1988. Hence the card she wouldve received wouldve looked like that.

The issue is WHEN did she discover she was not actually a citizen? As discussed previously, she renewed this permit 4 times. Each time she made the citizenship claim. The last time wouldve been in 2008.

It also raises the issue of if she thought she was a citizen perhaps she did other things as a citizen like purchase firearms as a citizen (which would also be in the FBI database) Work as a citizen. Fill out things at the DMV as a citizen (as others have mentioned.) Vote in elections as a citizen over the last 25 years. It just snowballs.

If this is the only thing she ever checked citizen on though- its still an issue. Less of an issue because its one thing rather then everything, but its still something. If she did it on the initial permit and then on the subsequent renewals 'fixed' it to alien. Its still an issue. The initial permit was issued as citizen. She checked citizen and it was issued and that needs to be disclosed on the N-400.

The OP should try to find out from the woman how big of issue this is. Is she dealing with one initial permit being issued incorrectly in 1988 and the rest were issued correctly or one initial incorrect permit and 4 subsequent incorrect renewals spanning 25 years. Because anything incorrect needs to be disclosed.

He would also need to question her further about if she is absolutely sure that she did not ever make any other claims of citizenship anywhere, because as I said its very unlikely that someone believes they are a citizen and receives a card clearly stating such over 25yrs and does not subsequently continue to check off citizen boxes on other things based on that reassurance. (if she was receiving cards stating such for 25yrs)

[Donna & Paul 4]

Well actually thats the permit card you receive not the application. Im sure I can dig up the actual application somewhere or have someone there scan over one, but I dont think its needed for the thread. Its basically the same everywhere- boxes that you fill in your name, height, weight address etc and check off citizen or alien and if alien provide your a#.

The OP already stated the woman thought she was a citizen based upon her marriage so she checked off citizen on the application in 1988. Hence the card she wouldve received wouldve looked like that.

The issue is WHEN did she discover she was not actually a citizen? As discussed previously, she renewed this permit 4 times. Each time she made the citizenship claim. The last time wouldve been in 2008.

It also raises the issue of if she thought she was a citizen perhaps she did other things as a citizen like purchase firearms as a citizen (which would also be in the FBI database) Work as a citizen. Fill out things at the DMV as a citizen (as others have mentioned.) Vote in elections as a citizen over the last 25 years. It just snowballs.

If this is the only thing she ever checked citizen on though- its still an issue. Less of an issue because its one thing rather then everything, but its still something. If she did it on the initial permit and then on the subsequent renewals 'fixed' it to alien. Its still an issue. The initial permit was issued as citizen. She checked citizen and it was issued and that needs to be disclosed on the N-400.

The OP should try to find out from the woman how big of issue this is. Is she dealing with one initial permit being issued incorrectly in 1988 and the rest were issued correctly or one initial incorrect permit and 4 subsequent incorrect renewals spanning 25 years. Because anything incorrect needs to be disclosed.

He would also need to question her further about if she is absolutely sure that she did not ever make any other claims of citizenship anywhere, because as I said its very unlikely that someone believes they are a citizen and receives a card clearly stating such over 25yrs and does not subsequently continue to check off citizen boxes on other things based on that reassurance. (if she was receiving cards stating such for 25yrs)

These are all good points. If she really did believe herself to be a citizen just by virtue of marriage to a USC it's highly unlikely she didn't apply for other things based on that belief. If she never applied for anything else I would have to question her belief that she was a citizen. In other words, did she intentionally check the citizen box on the application because she thought it would go faster? Or give her some benefit that she was afraid wouldn't be afforded a resident alien? Was it truly a matter of checking the wrong box? What was the purpose of her saying she was a citizen for this particular application?

As far as it being renewed every 5 years, once she had the card she may have thought nothing of it. Did she have to fill out an application for each renewal and restate she was a citizen or did she simply pay her fee and get a new card?

[Villanelle 4,122]

Well to renew you have to go in person and pay the fee, and sign again. Similar to renewing a DL. By signing youre stating everything is the same. You cant do it by mail, it has to be in person.

Its a little tricky. I mean its an implied acknowledgement when you sign. Youre re-certifying youre entitled to the benefit. Youre re-certifying this is my name and address and height and weight and hair color and yes, citizenship status. They dont ask you to fill out all the boxes again (just like when you renew a DL) You just review the form and sign again, that its all the same.

Its just a little incredulous because the actual card does state citizen yes or no on it. So it wouldve been a constant in your face declaration that the citizen box was checked initially. So you cant say I renewed it and didnt realize it. Or I found out later and renewed it and didnt know I was renewing it as a citizen again.

Thats why the date she discovered she wasnt a citizen is going to determine how honest she is. If it was just recently, its not really going to effect much on the N_400, because as mentioned, its all going to have to be disclosed either way. But in terms of how intentional or accidental this was- when she found out she wasnt- the date will matter.