Obama to visit Bethlehem

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Yeah, trust me, I know what his platmform says(I actually read all of them before I decide who to vote for). You have to start somewhere.

I know you have great faith in the supposed centrist-ness of Lapid's party, but that's only when it comes to internal policies. He's offered nothing new when it comes to a peace agreement with the Palestinians.

And his team-up with Naftali Bennett (who represents the settlers) is doomed from the get-go, because they are never going to agree on the drastic budget cuts that Lapid promised he was going to get. There's no way Bennett will agree to slash the military and the settlement budgets. Bennett's Jewish Home party is set to take control of the Ministry of Housing anyway, so that means more money for more settlement construction. Bennett is also against the creation of a Palestinian state and he doesn't believe in any peace agreement. So any attempt to change that status quo is pretty much neutralized. And either one of them can collapse the government.

http://www.france24.com/en/20130317-israel-netanyahu-ruling-coalition-can-collapse-time-bennett-lapid-bronchtein?ns_campaign=nl_bowe_en&ns_mchannel=email_marketing&ns_source=BOWE_12_20130318&ns_linkname=20130317_israel_netanyahu_ruling_coalition_can_collapse&ns_fee=0&f24_member_id=1088486604173&ns_mail_job=1112369030&ns_mail_uid=1088486604173&ns_robot=partner-emailvision&ns_service=mail

Expelling any population is never a good idea nor do I condone it and we have had this discussion before. I have also said many times that what matters now is what gets done with things looking forward where I'm sure we can find alot of common ground. However I have also tried to explain what went through their mind when they did what they did, coming out of what they had gone through, and what they had feared, in Europe and in Palestine, etc.

"Never a good idea" is pretty mild criticism for ethnic cleansing. I realize it probably took all you had to even say that much. If it were any other group ethnically cleansing their populations, I am guessing you would probably use stronger terminology.

Anyway, that's an interesting little seque you made over to an entirely separate issue, which is the Holocaust, along with your implication that crimes by Jews against Arabs in Palestine may be somehow justified or mitigated by crimes suffered by European Jews in the Holocaust.

This is a logical fallacy on several levels. First of all, war crimes against innocent people are not considered somehow less heinous or subject to reduced legal accountability if they are perpetrated by victims of previous, unrelated war crimes. The justice system may find it a mitigating factor during the punishment phase, and the perpetrators may receive a less severe penalty because they are psychologically impaired, but the crime itself is not considered any less serious.

Secondly, no one has established that Mr. Noiman was a victim of the Holocaust. (Even if he were, it is not a license to commit war crimes in another land.)

And thirdly, Plan Dalet was David Ben-Gurion's policy, and he was certainly not a victim of the Holocaust - as he admitted in his memoirs, he "personally never suffered anti-Semitic persecution." (Even if he did, it is not a license to go commit war crimes in another land.)

Interestingly enough, Ben-Gurion goes on to reminisce about his boyhood in his native Poland, where he boasts that gangs of Jews intimidated the gangs of non-Jewish Poles - "Far from being afraid of them, they were rather afraid of us."

Ben-Gurion talked about his plan to "transfer" the Arabs from Palestine (his term for ethnic cleansing) decades before 1948.

Edited March 18, 2013 by wife_of_mahmoud

[OriZ 3,157]

I know you have great faith in the supposed centrist-ness of Lapid's party, but that's only when it comes to internal policies. He's offered nothing new when it comes to a peace agreement with the Palestinians.

And his team-up with Naftali Bennett (who represents the settlers) is doomed from the get-go, because they are never going to agree on the drastic budget cuts that Lapid promised he was going to get. There's no way Bennett will agree to slash the military and the settlement budgets. Bennett's Jewish Home party is set to take control of the Ministry of Housing anyway, so that means more money for more settlement construction. Bennett is also against the creation of a Palestinian state and he doesn't believe in any peace agreement. So any attempt to change that status quo is pretty much neutralized. And either one of them can collapse the government.

http://www.france24.com/en/20130317-israel-netanyahu-ruling-coalition-can-collapse-time-bennett-lapid-bronchtein?ns_campaign=nl_bowe_en&ns_mchannel=email_marketing&ns_source=BOWE_12_20130318&ns_linkname=20130317_israel_netanyahu_ruling_coalition_can_collapse&ns_fee=0&f24_member_id=1088486604173&ns_mail_job=1112369030&ns_mail_uid=1088486604173&ns_robot=partner-emailvision&ns_service=mail

"Never a good idea" is pretty mild criticism for ethnic cleansing. I realize it probably took all you had to even say that much. If it were any other group ethnically cleansing their populations, I am guessing you would probably use stronger terminology.

Anyway, that's an interesting little seque you made over to an entirely separate issue, which is the Holocaust, along with your implication that crimes by Jews against Arabs in Palestine may be somehow justified or mitigated by crimes suffered by European Jews in the Holocaust.

This is a logical fallacy on several levels. First of all, war crimes against innocent people are not considered somehow less heinous or subject to reduced legal accountability if they are perpetrated by victims of previous, unrelated war crimes. The justice system may find it a mitigating factor during the punishment phase, and the perpetrators may receive a less severe penalty because they are psychologically impaired, but the crime itself is not considered any less serious.

Secondly, no one has established that Mr. Noiman was a victim of the Holocaust. (Even if he were, it is not a license to commit war crimes in another land.)

And thirdly, Plan Dalet was David Ben-Gurion's policy, and he was certainly not a victim of the Holocaust - as he admitted in his memoirs, he "personally never suffered anti-Semitic persecution." (Even if he did, it is not a license to go commit war crimes in another land.)

Interestingly enough, Ben-Gurion goes on to reminisce about his boyhood in his native Poland, where he boasts that gangs of Jews intimidated the gangs of non-Jewish Poles - "Far from being afraid of them, they were rather afraid of us."

Ben-Gurion talked about his plan to "transfer" the Arabs from Palestine (his term for ethnic cleansing) decades before 1948.

Actually, Bennett supports slashing military budgets. Yes, they are both aware that they differ on the settlements, but Lapid as treasury minister is the one who controls the switch. If he doesn't want to give them the money(which is yet to be seen), he doesn't have to. Also, Bennett has said many times he is not opposed to negotiations(probably because just like you, he believes nothing would come out of them), just to their result. So until there is a result, there won't be a clash. And once there is a result they can always be replaced with the Labor party which at that time will be happy to replace them if they can be the ones to help pass a peace deal.

I wasn't talking about personal experiences but rather collective ones, and I wasn't referring just to the holocaust but also events such as the ones I've detailed in some other thread not that long ago(some of it has to do with my grandmother).

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Actually, Bennett supports slashing military budgets. Yes, they are both aware that they differ on the settlements, but Lapid as treasury minister is the one who controls the switch. If he doesn't want to give them the money(which is yet to be seen), he doesn't have to. Also, Bennett has said many times he is not opposed to negotiations(probably because just like you, he believes nothing would come out of them), just to their result. So until there is a result, there won't be a clash. And once there is a result they can always be replaced with the Labor party which at that time will be happy to replace them if they can be the ones to help pass a peace deal.

I wasn't talking about personal experiences but rather collective ones, and I wasn't referring just to the holocaust but also events such as the ones I've detailed in some other thread not that long ago(some of it has to do with my grandmother).

Without the military protecting the settlements, they don't exist. Cutting the military means cutting the protection to the settlements.

The current Israeli government is a vote to keep kicking the can down the road - to continue stalling on peace negotiations, and to continue expanding the settlements. Possibly even the announcement of a unilateral annexation of choice chunks of the West Bank.

[OriZ 3,157]

Basically Lapid was the only sane choice. It was either him, or Meretz/Labor...and I cannot stand their social/economic policies.

[OriZ 3,157]

The Palestinian protest against the upcoming visit of US President Barack Obama in Israel and the Palestinian Authority is gaining momentum: On Monday dozens of Bethlehem residents vandalized a large billboard bearing the image of the US president.

The young Palestinians were protesting over what they see as America's pro-Israel policy – they stressed that the president would not receive a warm welcome in Bethlehem.

The protestors some of whom belong to organized Palestinian movements while others are relatives of Palestinians imprisoned in Israel, convened just dozens of meters away from the Church of the Nativity, removed the billboard and then proceeded to drive away with the billboard.

They then spray painted the billboard with swastikas and a large – "X" over Obama's face. Incidentally, at the same time a convoy of American cars passed by. One of the protestors threw a shoe at the convoy and fled.

There has been a major Palestinian outcry against the proposed visit since the US president announced his intentions of including Ramallah and Bethlehem in his trip.

Last week Ramallah's main streets became filled with posters calling on Obama to leave his smartphone at home when visiting Ramallah seeing as Israel prevents the PA from utilizing the third-generation (3-G) cellular technology. Then unknown vandals marked an "X" over Obama's posters.

Palestinian elements opposed to the visit endorsed the protest claiming that the cellular issue is minor in comparison to the more pressing issues such as prisoners, settlements and US military support of Israel.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4358080,00.html

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4358080,00.html

FILE-- In this Friday, March. 15, 2013 file photo, a Palestinian woman walks past vandalized posters showing US President Barack Obama, in the West Bank city of Ramallah. When he visits the region next week President Obama will find a disillusioned Palestinian public, skeptical about his commitment to promoting Mideast peace, and who accuse him of unfairly favoring Israel. (AP Photo/Majdi Mohammed, File)(Credit: AP)

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) — President Barack Obama will find a disillusioned Palestinian public, skeptical about his commitment to promoting Mideast peace, when he visits the region.

Obama’s trip, beginning Wednesday, appears aimed primarily at resetting the sometimes troubled relationship with Israel. But winning the trust of the Palestinians, who accuse him of unfairly favoring Israel, could be a far more difficult task.

After suffering disappointments during the first Obama administration, Palestinians see little reason for optimism in his new term. The White House announcement that Obama will not present any new peace initiatives strengthened their conviction that the U.S. leader isn’t prepared to put the pressure on Israel that they think is necessary to end four years of deadlock in negotiations.

“Obama is coming for Israel, not for us,” said Mohammed Albouz, a 55-year-old Palestinian farmer. “Obama will come and go as his predecessors did, without doing anything.”

While Israel is preparing to give Obama the red-carpet treatment, there are few signs of excitement in the West Bank. Large posters of Obama hung in Ramallah last week were quickly defaced, and a small group of activists called “The Campaign for Dignity” plans on releasing black balloons into the air in a sign of mourning when Obama arrives.

Obama himself played a role in reaching the current deadlock, which stems in large part from disagreements over Israeli settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. The Palestinians claim both areas, captured by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war, as parts of a future state, a position that is widely backed internationally.

When Obama first took office, he strongly and publicly criticized the Israeli settlements, saying the construction undermines hopes for peace. “It is time for these settlements to stop,” Obama said in a high-profile address to the Muslim world delivered in Cairo just months after taking office.

Emboldened by Obama’s tough stance, the Palestinians said they would not negotiate with Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, unless settlement construction was frozen.

Obama persuaded Netanyahu to impose a 10-month slowdown, but Palestinians did not agree to restart talks until the period was nearly over. When the Israeli moratorium expired several weeks later, Netanyahu rejected American appeals to extend the slowdown, and the negotiations collapsed.

Obama stopped pushing the matter, and talks have never resumed, and the Palestinians, viewing Obama as afraid to take on Israel’s allies in Washington, have few expectations now.

“What we are going to tell him behind closed doors is what we are saying in public. There is no secret that a successful peace process needs a complete settlement freeze,” said Nabil Shaath, a top adviser to President Mahmoud Abbas. “The Israelis are building on our land and claiming they want to negotiate with us about this land.”

More than 500,000 Israelis now live in settlements in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. The Palestinians say the ever-growing settlements are a sign of bad faith and make it increasingly difficult to partition the land between two peoples.

Netanyahu maintains that negotiations must resume without preconditions, and the fate of the settlements should be one of the issues on the table. He notes that previous rounds of negotiations have gone forward without a construction freeze.

Obama will get a firsthand glimpse of settlements when he heads to the Palestinian city of Ramallah on Thursday. The 20-minute drive from Jerusalem passes by sprawling settlements that are home to tens of thousands of Israelis.

Obama is scheduled to meet with Palestinian leaders and visit a youth center. He plans to head to the West Bank town of Bethlehem the next day to see the Church of the Nativity, built on the site where Christian tradition says Jesus was born.

...

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/17/palestinians_unenthusiastic_about_obama_visit/

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Plan Dalet was David Ben-Gurion's policy, and he was certainly not a victim of the Holocaust - as he admitted in his memoirs, he "personally never suffered anti-Semitic persecution." (Even if he did, it is not a license to go commit war crimes in another land.)

...

Ben-Gurion talked about his plan to "transfer" the Arabs from Palestine (his term for ethnic cleansing) decades before 1948.

Ben-Gurion was all about the idea of kicking the Palestinians out of Palestine and taking their land. Initially, he tried to get the British government to do the job. The British were rather taken aback by this demand, and British officials made many statements explicitly forbidding the Zionists from violating the rights of the native inhabitants.

Still, Ben-Gurion couldn't stop talking about the idea, and later acknowledged that Zionist forces would carry out the mission.

"The compulsory transfer of the Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had, even when we stood on our own during the days of the first and second Temples... We are given an opportunity which we never dared to dream of in our wildest imaginings. This is MORE than a state, government and sovereignty - this is national consolidation in a free homeland."

- Ben-Gurion's diary, July 12, 1937

"Ben-Gurion said yesterday that he was prepared to accept the [Peel partition] proposal of the Royal commission but on two conditions: [Jewish] sovereignty and compulsory transfer ..... As for the compulsory transfer-- as a member of Kibbutz Ramat Hakovsh [founded in 1932 in central Palestine] I would be very pleased if it would be possible to be rid of the pleasant neighborliness of the people of Miski, Tirah, and Qalqilyah."

- Yosef Bankover, Kibbutz movement leader and member of Haganah, July 30, 1937

"...In many parts of the country new settlement will not be possible without transferring the Arab fellahin. . . it is important that this plan comes from the [british Peel] Commission and not from us... Jewish power, which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out the transfer on a large scale. You must remember, that this system embodies an important humane and Zionist idea, to transfer parts of a people to their country and to settle empty lands. We believe that this action will also bring us closer to an agreement with the Arabs."

- Ben-Gurion's statement to the Zionist Assembly in their debate of the Peel Commmission, August 7, 1937

"With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement] .... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it."

- Ben-Gurion, 1937

"The possibility of large-scale transfer of a population by force was demonstrated, when the Greeks and the Turks were transferred [after WW I]. In the present war [referring to WW II] the idea of transferring a population is gaining more sympathy as a practical and the most secure means of solving the dangerous and painful problem of national minorities. The war has already brought the resettlement of many people eastern and southern Europe, and in the plans for the postwar settlements the idea of a large-scale population transfer in central, eastern, and southern Europe increasingly occupies a respectable place."

- Ben-Gurion, 1937

"With compulsory transfer we [would] have vast areas .... I support compulsory [population] transfer. I do not see anything immoral in it. But compulsory transfer could only be carried out by England .... Had its implementation been dependent merely on our proposal I would have proposed; but this would be dangerous to propose when the British government has disassociated itself from compulsory transfer. .... But this question should not be removed from the agenda because it is central question. There are two issues here : 1) sovereignty and 2) the removal of a certain number of Arabs, and we must insist on both of them."

- Ben-Gurion, 1938

"We adopt the system of aggressive defense; with every Arab attack we must respond with a decisive blow: the destruction of the place or the expulsion of the residents along with the seizure of the place."

- Ben-Gurion's statement to the Haganah on policy toward the Palestinian civilian population, December 19, 1947

"From your entry into Jerusalem, through Lifta, Romema [East Jerusalem Palestinian neighborhood]... there are no Arabs. One hundred percent Jews. Since Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, it has not been Jewish as it is now. In many Arab neighborhoods in the west one sees not a single Arab. I do not assume that this will change... What had happened in Jerusalem... is likely to happen in many parts of the country... in the six, eight, or ten months of the campaign there will certainly be great changes in the composition of the population in the country."

- Ben-Gurion's statement to the Mapai Council, February 8, 1948

His statements during and after the war were just as revealing.

[BatmanUSA 105]

wife-of-Mahmoud and oriZ...

I appreciate both of your comments and I find them educational, thank you for enlightening me.!!

I am curious if either of you live in the region??? I think I saw oriZ say he lives in Israel, how about, wife-of-Mahmoud., do you live in Palestine??

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

wife-of-Mahmoud and oriZ...

I appreciate both of your comments and I find them educational, thank you for enlightening me.!!

I am curious if either of you live in the region??? I think I saw oriZ say he lives in Israel, how about, wife-of-Mahmoud., do you live in Palestine??

I live in Texas. It's my husband who is from Palestine. We were married there. He lived there all his life until he came to the US about 7 years ago.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

These are from one of my trips to Bethlehem... sorry for dust on the scanner...

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Heavy sandstorms in Israel and Palestine - apparently Obama had to change plans and drive to Bethlehem rather than go by helicopter as originally planned.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Obama set to visit Bethlehem for '26 minutes'

Published today (updated) 22/03/2013 12:17

Policemen patrol ahead of US President Barack Obama's arrival at

the Church of the Nativity, revered as the site of Jesus' birth, in the

West Bank town of Bethlehem March 22. (Reuters/Ammar Awad)

By George Hale

BETHLEHEM (Ma'an) -- Barack Obama makes his second visit as president to the occupied West Bank on Friday, capping a 48-hour tour that has mostly emphasized Israeli concerns.

Before he heads to the Jordanian capital, a final blip on the US leader’s agenda is Bethlehem, where Palestinian officials were scrambling Thursday to accommodate a massive security contingent that will shut down movement in the city, albeit briefly.

"Twenty-six minutes, exactly," according to Bethlehem mayor Vera Baboun, citing an explicit timeframe demanded by Obama’s travel detail. "How and why, I have no idea,” she said ahead of the president’s visit, sounding more bemused than disappointed.

"I don't know how it's going to be 26 minutes. Don’t ask me," she added.

Palestinian officials say the trip will start mid-day when the presidential "Marine One" helicopter takes off from Jerusalem and flies over the separation wall before touching down at Bethlehem’s only helipad, not far from the local presidential headquarters.

Two main streets were to close in case Obama’s detail opts to enter by car, according to police sources. Days ago, transportation officials advised taxi and bus drivers to take the day off as most main routes were shut down for the duration of Obama’s stay.

President Mahmoud Abbas will accompany Obama for a tour of the Church of the Nativity, the historic birthplace of Jesus. Obama travels next to a farewell ceremony at Israel’s Ben Gurion International Airport. Air Force One is scheduled to lift off at 3:15 p.m.

If the American leader sticks to the timetable Palestinian officials expect, he will not have much time to ponder the encroaching settlements on three sides of this historically Christian city, or the 20-foot cement wall cutting Bethlehem off from its northern neighbor Jerusalem.

Asked what issues she would bring up with Obama during the final Palestinian stop on his regional “listening tour,” Baboun said the two were unlikely to speak. "We're not going to meet him," Baboun said in an interview. "It's just shake hands and then bye, bye, Roma."

Despite the timetable, Baboun described Obama's trip as a welcome gesture to learn of the obstacles facing her city. She hopes he will think hard about what he sees.

"It's important that President Obama comes and sees, as a president, and listens because we need acts," Baboun said. “Enough is enough, I think. We waited a long time.”

Bethlehem will also offer a stark contrast to the economic boomtown Obama observed a day earlier during a visit to the seat of the Palestinian Authority.

"Ramallah is a very different city than the one I visited five years ago," Obama told reporters alongside President Abbas. "There's new construction. There's new businesses, new start-ups, including many high-tech companies, connecting Palestinians to the global economy."

Bethlehem's situation is a darker version of the situation facing Palestinians outside the "Ramallah bubble," which is heavily dependent on foreign aid and government investment projects.

Bethlehem's traditional industry, tourism, collapsed after Israel completed its wall. The tourism industry never fully recovered. Nearly 20 percent of the city is out of work today; Bethlehem's unemployment rate is the highest of any city in the occupied West Bank.

According to the Bethlehem Chamber of Commerce, the poor economic situation is partly the result of a lack of Palestinian control over 65 percent of the district's territory. All but 35 percent is subjected to restrictions on movement and military orders meant to protect the settlements. "If you want to develop our economy, we need to control our areas," says chairman Azmi Bishara.

Palestinian officials said Obama's visit could end up lasting over the allotted half hour depending on the level of hostility to his presence in the city. Palestinian activists say they plan to protest the president's arrival with a rally starting on one of the main intersections blocks from the Nativity Church.

"In light of the anti-Palestinian US position, Obama is a persona non grata in Bethlehem," Munthir Amira, chairman of a youth center in Aida refugee camp, told Ma’an ahead of the visit. He was speaking after protesters tore down a sign showing Obama’s picture in the square surrounding the church.

The square was locked down Thursday, a Ma'an reporter observed.

Baboun, the mayor, said security forces would not obstruct peaceful demonstrations.

"This is democratic. People have the right to express themselves in the way they want," the mayor said, adding that the security zone around the church would still be enforced.

Speaking for herself, though, Baboun described the president's visit as a positive gesture, and she encouraged Obama "to listen and see -- and to act."

"Bethlehem is the place where the message of peace was witnessed in the Nativity, where the message of peace was born. Unfortunately, this place is not witnessing peace at all."

She added: "It is his opportunity to act, I think."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=577603

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

And..... Obama has just left Bethlehem and is already on his way back to the airport. Rumors were flying that he was going to cut the Bethlehem visit to 14 minutes, because his last meeting with Netanyahu earlier today ran almost an hour late, delaying his arrival in Bethlehem for some 56 minutes.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Haven't seen any photos or footage yet (what's up with that ???) but Ma'an News is reporting that Obama's motorcade took a route that passed through a checkpoint in The Wall surrounding Bethlehem. John Kerry reportedly accompanied him along with PA President Mahmoud Abbas as they took a short tour of the Church of the Nativity. He was greeted at the church by the Mayor of Bethlehem and clergy.

Ahead of the brief visit, the mayor of Bethlehem said she hoped Obama would think hard about what he sees.

Baboun described Obama's trip as a welcome gesture to learn of the obstacles facing her city.

"It's important that President Obama comes and sees, as a president, and listens because we need acts," Baboun said. “Enough is enough, I think. We waited a long time.”

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=577701

ETA:

OK here we go

Edited March 22, 2013 by wife_of_mahmoud

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Mayor of Bethlehem gave letter to Obama

(updated) 23/03/2013 16:49

BETHLEHEM (Ma'an) -- The mayor of Bethlehem Vera Baboun handed a letter to US president Barack Obama during his short visit to Bethlehem’s Church of Nativity on Friday.

The letter, according to Baboun, is of special importance because it was from the birthplace of Jesus Christ.

"Bethlehem isn't living in peace despite the fact that the city was a source of peace to the whole world," the letter read, according to the mayor of Bethlehem.

She explained that the letter was enclosed with a gift to Obama from the Bethlehem city council -- a sculpture of the birth of Jesus on an olive branch.

Baboun told Ma'an that her letter tackled the issue of Israel's separation wall which surrounds Bethlehem, and Israeli restrictions on construction and development in the small city.

"God almighty created weather changes so Obama couldn’t arrive in Bethlehem by helicopter. Instead, he entered the city via the separation wall so he was able to see firsthand how the residents of Bethlehem suffer from the restrictions imposed by the occupation."

Baboun highlighted that Obama talked to a priest who told the US president, "Don’t be like all other US presidents. Be different and make peace, carving your name in gold as there isn't enough time left."

Obama replied, according to Baboun, "I will do my best. Pray on my behalf so I can do that."

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=577823

That's the mayor in the red jacket:

The sandstorm that forced him to drive to Bethlehem rather than go by helicopter: