Obama to visit Bethlehem

[OriZ 3,157]

[quote name=' timestamp='1363107373' post='6041262]

"internationally managed"?

Yes, why not? The Palestinians wouldn't want it to only be Israel, and Israel wouldn't want it to only be the Palestinians. So why not make it international? It does belong to everyone.

Your New York Post hasbarist says a whole lot of clueless and stupid stuff in that article, but one of the most remarkably stupid is his claim that the population of Christians is "growing in Israel." He completely ignores the fact that 80% of the Christians who used to live in what is now Israel were ethnically cleansed from what is now Israel by Zionist militias and later the Israeli army, and are to this day refused the right to return to their homes.

So yeah, there'd be a LOT more Christians in Israel. Except Israel bars them from returning.

The rest is junk and it ignores what actual Christian Palestinians themselves say. I've already linked you to the Kairos document and others, which you also totally ignore. Instead, you'd rather listen to non-Christian Israeli Zionist hasbarists speak for them.

Most remarkably stupid? It's the truth. What you're talking about is completely irrelevant as he's talking about recent decades. The number of Christians in Israel has been going nothing but up since the 70's, whereas it's been going down in the Muslim world. Also, the percent of Christians in Bethlehem is not 40% as you've mentioned. Look here -

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/11000

This article says it's about 15%. But ok ok I get it, you don't like arutz sheva. Ok. How about the Guardian? Their reasoning in this article is flawed, but even they say it's only 28%(as of 2008).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/23/bethlehem-christians-feel-squeeze-settlements

Most of this plan (apart from the ideas about the international managers) is actually pretty close to what the PA already agreed to, several times over. It's your government that absolutely refuses to let go of East Jerusalem, while simultaneously expanding the illegal settlements that it insists it will keep. It also refuses to consider allowing any Palestinian military force, other than internal security which would be subject to the Israeli military and Israeli police. This has basically been the problem since Oslo.

We've already had this discussion in the past so we won't go into it again, but that wasn't exactly what was offered and I honestly doubt EITHER side will jump on this even today, notice I keep talking about both sides but you like to blame just one side. It's unfortunate cause I think this is a good plan, one that I, and I believe 70% of Israelis, would support.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Most remarkably stupid? It's the truth. What you're talking about is completely irrelevant as he's talking about recent decades. The number of Christians in Israel has been going nothing but up since the 70's, whereas it's been going down in the Muslim world. Also, the percent of Christians in Bethlehem is not 40% as you've mentioned. Look here -

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/11000

This article says it's about 15%. But ok ok I get it, you don't like arutz sheva. Ok. How about the Guardian? Their reasoning in this article is flawed, but even they say it's only 28%(as of 2008).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/23/bethlehem-christians-feel-squeeze-settlements

I understand that you would like to reset the timeline of Israel's impact on the Christian community of historic Palestine to some point after the Nakba, but that's not being honest about what went on and is going on. The Nakba is at the center of the issue.

Stats with links:

In 1946, historic Palestine had a total of about 143,000 Christians, making up about 8% of the population.

Currently, the Israeli population includes a total of about 158,000 Christians. Christians now make up just 2% of the Israeli population.

Meanwhile, there are currently about 167,000 Palestinian Christians in the West Bank and another 10,000 in Gaza, making up about 8% of the population of the West Bank.

You can clearly see by the numbers that the increase in the total Christian population since 1946 in what is now Israel is almost negligible. Israel's expulsion of the bulk of the native Christian population and its refusal to allow them to return, has barely been offset by nearly 7 decades of:

#1. Natural increase among the native Christian population - these are the few members of the Palestinian Arab Christian community who managed to remain in spite of Israel's ethnic cleansing of 80% of their numbers. (4/5 of all the Christians in Israel are Palestinian Arabs.)

#2. The immigration of some Russian Christians who claimed Right of Return based on Jewish family members. (About 20% of all Israeli Christians are of Russian origin.)

So to recap - Israel ethnically cleansed tens of thousands of Christian Palestinians and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, then later allowed some Christian relatives of incoming Russian Jews to take their places, and meanwhile benevolently allowed the few remaining Palestinian Arab Christians to have some babies ! Presto - Christian numbers propped up. And you think that's something to brag about.

Guess what ? A bunch of Iraqi Christians fled to Syria and settled there, so the number of Christians in Syria has dramatically increased. Therefore (by your logic) Syria must be a paradise for Christians.

We've already had this discussion in the past so we won't go into it again, but that wasn't exactly what was offered and I honestly doubt EITHER side will jump on this even today, notice I keep talking about both sides but you like to blame just one side. It's unfortunate cause I think this is a good plan, one that I, and I believe 70% of Israelis, would support.

Sure it was offered, and you've already been given the links on what happened, including Tzipi Livni's rage over the suggestion that Israel even discuss East Jerusalem. You just don't want to admit that your leaders have been lying to you about the Peace-by-Piece Process in order to expand Greater Israel.

Unfortunately, 70% of Israelis aren't making the decisions at the negotiating table. It comes down to what your leaders will do, and what they won't do. And you get the leaders you vote for.

When Israelis start electing people who will actually be willing to stop the settlements and make a compromise on East Jerusalem, etc. - then things might change. Palestinians have already agreed to an enormous compromise - giving up 78% of their historic land.

Edited March 13, 2013 by wife_of_mahmoud

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

The Christian Palestinian Arabs of Nazareth are the main Christian community that escaped Israel's ethnic cleansing in 1948 - and that was only because the IDF officer who led the unit that captured the city, a Canadian Jew named Ben Dunkelman, refused direct orders from his commanding officer to expel the residents.

Elsewhere, Christian Palestinians were driven out at the same rate as Muslim Palestinians. For instance in Haifa - Israel's so-called "mixed city." Before the Nakba, it had been home to 70,000 Christian and Muslim Palestinians along with 70,000 Jews. Zionist militias and later the Israeli army expelled 64,000 of those Christians and Muslims during the Nakba, and refused to allow them to return to their homes - which Israel distributed for the use of Jewish immigrants.

So today, not even 70 years later, the population of Haifa is 80% Jewish and only 20% Palestinian Arab - which is pretty much the current overall demographics of Israel. However, because the few remaining Arabs actually live in the midst of an overwhelming majority of Jews, Haifa is represented as being a "progressive" city. I guess in comparison to most other Israeli communities, which are almost completely segregated, it might seem so to the uninformed.

[OriZ 3,157]

As someone who lives in Haifa, I can tell you it is a mixed city, that sets an example for the rest of the country, with even the most extreme Arab MKs saying that. Also, once again you try to make it seem as if everyone was expelled which is of course not true(another conversation we've had before)...sure some were forced to leave, but many left on their own, just ask my gram who happened to live in Haifa at the time(she was 25)...sorry, but I'll take her word.

Palestinians have already agreed to an enormous compromise - giving up 78% of their historic land.

I guess history started much more recently than I thought.

#1. Natural increase among the native Christian population - these are the few members of the Palestinian Arab Christian community who managed to remain in spite of Israel's ethnic cleansing of 80% of their numbers. (4/5 of all the Christians in Israel are Palestinian Arabs.)

#2. The immigration of some Russian Christians who claimed Right of Return based on Jewish family members. (About 20% of all Israeli Christians are of Russian origin.)

According to my math, that leaves room for no one else. So all the Christians in Israel are either Palestinians or Russians. Wrong. There are Christians from all over the world. My wife would be one if we had only decided to stay a little longer, but we will be going to the states before she would have been here for 5 years.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I guess history started much more recently than I thought.

Not unless you think a bunch of modern Europeans are the closest living descendants to the ancient Hebrews.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Not unless you think a bunch of modern Europeans are the closest living descendants to the ancient Hebrews.

In the Zionist construct, Jews may be considered fungible.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

As someone who lives in Haifa, I can tell you it is a mixed city, that sets an example for the rest of the country, with even the most extreme Arab MKs saying that. Also, once again you try to make it seem as if everyone was expelled which is of course not true(another conversation we've had before)...sure some were forced to leave, but many left on their own, just ask my gram who happened to live in Haifa at the time(she was 25)...sorry, but I'll take her word.

Whether they were driven out at the point of a gun or whether they fled from a war zone - it makes no difference. If they're refused the right to return to their homes and their homeland, then they've been expelled.

I swear Zionism is a mental disease.

I guess history started much more recently than I thought.

See: fungible, above.

According to my math, that leaves room for no one else. So all the Christians in Israel are either Palestinians or Russians. Wrong. There are Christians from all over the world. My wife would be one if we had only decided to stay a little longer, but we will be going to the states before she would have been here for 5 years.

I don't know what math you're using, but the number of Israeli Christians who are neither Palestinian Arab nor Russian is so minute as to be negligible. Forgive me for rounding up the .001% or so that they comprise of Israel's population.

I am using the Government of Israel's own figures. Again, according to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, in 2012 there were about 158,000 Christians Israelis. According to the 2010 Statistical Abstract of Israel, the vast majority - about 122,000 of them - were Palestinian Arab. According to The Demographics of Israel 2012, virtually all of the rest are Russian.

So that adds up to exactly what I said: Israel's Christian population - which now makes up only 2% of Israel's total population - is about 80% Palestinian Arab, and about 20% Russian. You can add "...and .001% neither" if you insist.

Edited March 14, 2013 by wife_of_mahmoud

[OriZ 3,157]

Unfortunately, 70% of Israelis aren't making the decisions at the negotiating table. It comes down to what your leaders will do, and what they won't do. And you get the leaders you vote for.

When Israelis start electing people who will actually be willing to stop the settlements and make a compromise on East Jerusalem, etc. - then things might change. Palestinians have already agreed to an enormous compromise - giving up 78% of their historic land.

Israelis don't just vote based on the Palestinian Israeli conflict, just as Americans don't vote for a president based solely on his foreign affairs. There are plenty of internal issues to take care of which to most people are more important. One of the reasons I voted for Lapid in the recent elections was cause he was the closest thing to a right combination of the two - on the one hand take care of the high taxes and living expenses, the fact that everyone should do some kind of either military or civil or national service - including orthodox jews and arabs, changing the political system in israel, and some other internal affairs he talked about that I agree with, but also stressed how important it is to get back to the negotiating table and freeze isolated settlements and use that money elsewhere.

Edited March 15, 2013 by OriZ

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Israelis don't just vote based on the Palestinian Israeli conflict, just as Americans don't vote for a president based solely on his foreign affairs. There are plenty of internal issues to take care of which to most people are more important. One of the reasons I voted for Lapid in the recent elections was cause he was the closest thing to a right combination of the two - on the one hand take care of the high taxes and living expenses, the fact that everyone should do some kind of either military or civil or national service - including orthodox jews and arabs, changing the political system in israel, and some other internal affairs he talked about that I agree with, but also stressed how important it is to get back to the negotiating table and freeze isolated settlements and use that money elsewhere.

Of course most Israelis aren't one-issue voters, and they are hardly concerned with what happens to Palestinians. Most of them hardly even think about the occupation, or about Palestinians - most Arabs are hidden from them, unseen - behind The Wall or out in "Arab towns." It's an unpleasant thing to think about anyway, so most would rather not - that is, as long as the Palestinians agree to fade away quietly. If if they start kicking and fighting and scratching at their occupiers, well, then Israelis wake up and notice the Palestinians, but mostly in a negative way.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

An old former Palmach fighter, Amnon Noiman, explains how the Palestinians were expelled - he took part in it:

"The flight of the villagers started when we began cleansing the entire... the paths for our convoys. And then we began expelling the villagers. Eventually they ran on their own. No civilian population can live during a war. That's the first condition. They didn't think they were leaving for a long time. They didn't think they won't return. No one even imagined that an entire nation won't return. We expelled there first, and then spread to the sides. To Najd, to Sumsum, but that was later... We didn't come to collect taxes from them, Or for... We came to... Inherit the land from the hands of strangers. That was the basis of our thinking. To inherit the land. And we inherited, and who inherits, dispossesses others. That's why we wouldn't let them return. That was everywhere, in the South, in the North, everywhere."

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Israelis don't just vote based on the Palestinian Israeli conflict, just as Americans don't vote for a president based solely on his foreign affairs. There are plenty of internal issues to take care of which to most people are more important. One of the reasons I voted for Lapid in the recent elections was cause he was the closest thing to a right combination of the two - on the one hand take care of the high taxes and living expenses, the fact that everyone should do some kind of either military or civil or national service - including orthodox jews and arabs, changing the political system in israel, and some other internal affairs he talked about that I agree with, but also stressed how important it is to get back to the negotiating table and freeze isolated settlements and use that money elsewhere.

Interesting article from Joseph Dana in The National, reflecting on how the vote went - and it touches on many of the issues you mentioned as top-of-mind as you cast your vote, and it also touches on some of the points I was trying to make:

...Instead of looking for a defence-policy strongman or a clear message of security as the regional landscape changes around them, Israelis went to the polls with domestic issues on their minds.

Iran and Syria were noticeably absent from exit polling data as Israelis made their election about taxes in Tel Aviv and whether ultra-orthodox men should have to join the military. Instead of electing a general from the military establishment, Israeli voters made former television journalist Yair Lapid the kingmaker.

This demonstrates that the security narrative inside Israeli society is not as strong as it may seem when seen from the West, and it also shows that the status quo of occupation and unequal governance has entrenched itself in the Israeli mindset.

Like many white South Africans at the height of the apartheid system, Israelis are desperate to feel normal. They understand that the situation with the Palestinians is not ideal, but see no other way. Therefore they prefer to pretend that their country is like Spain or Greece, where the most pressing issues are those related to the financial situation of their society.

The reality is that this dangerous thinking is harming Israel's ability to see the legitimate national security dangers that are looming on the horizon.

Ultimately, Israel's system of unequal governance will be dismantled, along with the intellectual scaffolding employed to support it. This is where South Africa's continuing process of unravelling apartheid can inform and assist Israelis and Palestinians in a constructive though rather painful manner.

The time for this debate is now, before the coming storm of transformation shakes the Middle East.

http://www.thenational.ae/thenationalconversation/comment/israel-and-palestinians-can-see-the-future-in-south-africa

Dana says that Israelis can see their future in South Africa - not the apartheid state, but the post-apartheid state - and that the time to start preparing for that future is now, rather than ignoring it and hoping it will go away.

Edited March 16, 2013 by wife_of_mahmoud

[OriZ 3,157]

Someone should remind joseph dana that, as I've stated in my post - a big part of Lapid's campaign was not only about those issues - but also the need to freeze isolated settlements(that also ties into the domestic issue being that money would be much better used elsewhere) and get back to the negotiating table

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Someone should remind joseph dana that, as I've stated in my post - a big part of Lapid's campaign was not only about those issues - but also the need to freeze isolated settlements(that also ties into the domestic issue being that money would be much better used elsewhere) and get back to the negotiating table

Isolated outposts of 3 trailers, miles away from the giant settlement blocs are not the big problem and you know it. Removing those would be merely a cosmetic move, and the only ones that will be removed are those that do not advance the Israeli government's plan to annex most of the West Bank that has been successfully cleansed of Palestinians. It's the big settlement blocs themselves that are the problem - they are constantly being expanded to completely encircle Jerusalem as well as bisect the breadth of the West Bank all the way to Jericho, and to entrench Israel's control of key aquifers and other valuable natural resources.

A Palestinian state requires that Israel give up most of its settlements - because those settlements make a Palestinian state impossible. However, Israel doesn't want to give up those settlements - because that would make a Palestinian state possible. All Israeli politicians know this, and despite the public lip service about a two-state solution, they are all in agreement that they don't want a Palestinian state (at least not one west of the Jordan river.)

Lapid is no different. His party platform states in Article 2 that no new settlements will be built during the negotiations, but that settlement growth will be allowed within the needs of the population.

Article 6 states that there will be no territorial compromise in Jerusalem and that the entire city will remain under Israeli control.

And article 9 implies that Israel may retain the right to military authority within the Palestinian state.

http://yeshatid.org.il/programs/national/main

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

So OriZ, I was wondering what you thought of the clip with Amnon Noiman, describing the expulsions he took part in, and how he knew at the time he was expelling a civilian population which would then be prevented from returning, with the intention that Jews would take over the emptied land. The clip is part of a longer film, where he starts out very unwilling to talk about what happened - you can see how uncomfortable he is with the memory of some of the incidents.

This was the mission of Plan Dalet - to ethnically cleanse as many Palestinian Arabs as possible from the area that the UN plan had designated as the Jewish state, as well as to seize and cleanse additional areas well beyond that designated territory, with the intention that Israel could then claim these areas as well.

Of course there were Jews who did not know of the plan, and who had nothing to do with it, like your grandmother. There were also cases of Jews who knew, but refused orders to carry out these crimes, like Ben Dunkelman in Nazareth, as mentioned above. It's well known that Shabtai Levi, who was the mayor of Haifa in 1948, begged Palestinian residents of the city to stay. (He had likely been briefed about or at least suspected what Ben Gurion had already planned for any Arabs who fled.) But Levi couldn't stop the Carmeli Brigade, which was ruthless in spreading terror among the city's Arabs, under direct orders to "press the inhabitants" to leave. The Carmeli was actually commended by the IDF in June 1948 for its "great efficiency" in sparking Arab flight from Haifa.

Most of this history has been hidden from average Israelis - it was not taught in schools, nor was it openly discussed for a long time. As the film examines, even those who took part in it have suppressed many of the memories of what actually happened, as facing them can be very painful. Nobody wants to be a war criminal.

[OriZ 3,157]

Isolated outposts of 3 trailers, miles away from the giant settlement blocs are not the big problem and you know it. Removing those would be merely a cosmetic move, and the only ones that will be removed are those that do not advance the Israeli government's plan to annex most of the West Bank that has been successfully cleansed of Palestinians. It's the big settlement blocs themselves that are the problem - they are constantly being expanded to completely encircle Jerusalem as well as bisect the breadth of the West Bank all the way to Jericho, and to entrench Israel's control of key aquifers and other valuable natural resources.

A Palestinian state requires that Israel give up most of its settlements - because those settlements make a Palestinian state impossible. However, Israel doesn't want to give up those settlements - because that would make a Palestinian state possible. All Israeli politicians know this, and despite the public lip service about a two-state solution, they are all in agreement that they don't want a Palestinian state (at least not one west of the Jordan river.)

Lapid is no different. His party platform states in Article 2 that no new settlements will be built during the negotiations, but that settlement growth will be allowed within the needs of the population.

Article 6 states that there will be no territorial compromise in Jerusalem and that the entire city will remain under Israeli control.

And article 9 implies that Israel may retain the right to military authority within the Palestinian state.

http://yeshatid.org.il/programs/national/main

Yeah, trust me, I know what his platmform says(I actually read all of them before I decide who to vote for). You have to start somewhere.

So OriZ, I was wondering what you thought of the clip with Amnon Noiman, describing the expulsions he took part in, and how he knew at the time he was expelling a civilian population which would then be prevented from returning, with the intention that Jews would take over the emptied land. The clip is part of a longer film, where he starts out very unwilling to talk about what happened - you can see how uncomfortable he is with the memory of some of the incidents.

This was the mission of Plan Dalet - to ethnically cleanse as many Palestinian Arabs as possible from the area that the UN plan had designated as the Jewish state, as well as to seize and cleanse additional areas well beyond that designated territory, with the intention that Israel could then claim these areas as well.

Of course there were Jews who did not know of the plan, and who had nothing to do with it, like your grandmother. There were also cases of Jews who knew, but refused orders to carry out these crimes, like Ben Dunkelman in Nazareth, as mentioned above. It's well known that Shabtai Levi, who was the mayor of Haifa in 1948, begged Palestinian residents of the city to stay. (He had likely been briefed about or at least suspected what Ben Gurion had already planned for any Arabs who fled.) But Levi couldn't stop the Carmeli Brigade, which was ruthless in spreading terror among the city's Arabs, under direct orders to "press the inhabitants" to leave. The Carmeli was actually commended by the IDF in June 1948 for its "great efficiency" in sparking Arab flight from Haifa.

Most of this history has been hidden from average Israelis - it was not taught in schools, nor was it openly discussed for a long time. As the film examines, even those who took part in it have suppressed many of the memories of what actually happened, as facing them can be very painful. Nobody wants to be a war criminal.

Expelling any population is never a good idea nor do I condone it and we have had this discussion before. I have also said many times that what matters now is what gets done with things looking forward where I'm sure we can find alot of common ground. However I have also tried to explain what went through their mind when they did what they did, coming out of what they had gone through, and what they had feared, in Europe and in Palestine, etc.