US: Immigrants may be held indefinitely

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

How can you have no recourse, if you live a good life and are accountable for your actions, how could you be "accidentally nabbed".

How? Ask the German citizen Khalid El-Masri. His only crime was that some bozo at the CIA mistook him for Khalid Al-Masri.

Yeah that whole 'due process' thing might have come in handy there

Not to wish anything bad on anyone but I think some folks need to get involved in a case of mistaken identity once to wake up. Think it can't happen to you? Better think again.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

How can you have no recourse, if you live a good life and are accountable for your actions, how could you be "accidentally nabbed".

How? Ask the German citizen Khalid El-Masri. His only crime was that some bozo at the CIA mistook him for Khalid Al-Masri.

Yeah that whole 'due process' thing might have come in handy there

Not to wish anything bad on anyone but I think some folks need to get involved in a case of mistaken identity once to wake up. Think it can't happen to you? Better think again.

True. They might reconsider their position on the 'torture that is not torture'

[RaspberrySwirl 20]

Is there a clear definition of an "enemy combatant"?

If this law applies to "enemy combatants" only, I don't see what it has to do with

immigrants living in the U.S.

Ali Saleh Kahlah Al-Marri, a citizen of Qatar, was arrested in 2001 while studying in the United States. He has been labeled an "enemy combatant," a designation that, under a law signed last month, strips foreigners of the right to challenge their detention in federal courts.

Why was he labeled an enemy combatant (presumably a person fighting U.S. forces abroad)

if he was studying in the U.S.?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Saleh_Kahlah_al-Marri

From the wiki entry:

In 2002 Ali was charged with financial crimes.[1] Al-Marri was charged with opening bank accounts with inadequate or forged identity documents.

Evidence has been disclosed that al-Marri was in possession of a telephone card that was previously used to call a number in Dubai linked to the reputed Al Qaeda finacier, Mustafa al-Hawsawi. After searching al-Marri's computer, a folder was found labeled "jihad arena", which according to the government, contained information on hydrogen cyanide, a poisonous gas used in chemical weapons, along with lectures by Osama bin Laden and a cartoon of planes crashing into the World Trade Center.[2]

This made me LOL, then it made me sad. Why on earth would a terrorist, be stupid enough to have that kind of date on their harddrive and then be even more stupid to label it "Jihad whichever".

That doesn't make sense to me, sorry. It's like a guy labeling his porn folder as "PORN" instead of something like "Work related boring spreadsheets".

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Umm, yeah, if you want to give up some of your "sleep," then by all means, go ahead and give yours up. I myself will fight for all the "sleep" entitled to me.

You probably are a nice person but obviously do not have much of a work ethic. Why are you coming here then?

I don't have a good work ethic because I want to protect my civil liberties You made a poor analogy. I'm speaking only of the civil liberties, not some ficticious example involving sleep.

And why am I coming where? I'm an american citizen. I am guarenteed these rights. And I'll fight to make sure that my immigrant husband has these rights as well.

1. That's a horrible thing to say to a Midwesterner. We value hard work.

2. Rahma is a Midwesterner and an American.

3. The fact that you even think that analogy is valid says a lot more about you than it does about anyone who disagrees with you.

It's those left over vestiges of the protestant work ethic still lingering in Minnesota. We may be blue, but gosh darn it, we work hard.

[DeadPoolX 9]

That doesn't make sense to me, sorry. It's like a guy labeling his porn folder as "PORN" instead of something like "Work related boring spreadsheets".

I actually knew someone who, when using Kazaa, had only two folders for downloads -- Cartoons and Porn. I think he was a little unhinged.

The point a lot of people in this thread are trying to make is that we, American citizens and permanent residents, are guaranteed certain rights in the United States of America. It doesn't matter that we may never "do something wrong." The fact remains that law enforcement is not infallible, and therefore, may make errors in judgment and such errors could cost one their life as they know it.

Yes, the U.S. has the duty and obligation to protect and defend us against outside hostile forces. I am in complete agreement with that. However, it's when these methods to "serve and protect" become too overbearing that there's a problem. Civil liberty is part of what makes the U.S. the great country that it is today. To trample all over that in the name of security would defeat the entire purpose of what we're fighting for in the first place.

[Caladan 19]

It's also a mistake to think that anyone concerned about this is secretly guilty of terrorism or seriously worried about mistaken identity.

It's just that if you don't have this procedural right, you don't have anything at all. Mistaken identity is unlikely for me or my fiancé. But isn't it a shame that we only feel so confident because we're both pale blonde people?

Plus, I don't think this law helps us in the war on terror. If we gave everyone a hearing, we could say to, say, Germany, we treated your citizen fairly, and here is why we think he's guilty. I'm not sure, were I German, that I'd want to help the U.S. fight terrorism, given that we seem to have no problems arresting their citizens without cause. And wouldn't it be useful to have allies?

[aussiewench 9]

The point a lot of people in this thread are trying to make is that we, American citizens and permanent residents, are guaranteed certain rights in the United States of America. It doesn't matter that we may never "do something wrong." The fact remains that law enforcement is not infallible, and therefore, may make errors in judgment and such errors could cost one their life as they know it.

Yes, the U.S. has the duty and obligation to protect and defend us against outside hostile forces. I am in complete agreement with that. However, it's when these methods to "serve and protect" become too overbearing that there's a problem. Civil liberty is part of what makes the U.S. the great country that it is today. To trample all over that in the name of security would defeat the entire purpose of what we're fighting for in the first place.

Its been happening little by little since 9/11 and the Patriot Act. A chess game and the loser is Freedom & Liberty. I have doubts that it can now be stopped or even reversed. I will actually put my money on there being another event such as the magnitude of 9/11 that is going to seal everyones fate in losing the freedoms and civil liberties that remain When you put all the freedoms etc down on paper that you once had, and then list all that has been taken away by various legislation in the past few years in particular, you will see that you have lost an awful lot, yet many of you don't even see the big picture.

Edited November 15, 2006 by aussiewench

[~Jess~ 0]

thats some crazy sh!t!

[aussiewench 9]

This legislation was discussed in Off Topic a couple of weeks ago. The thread didn't get much notice if I recall.

And also if I recall, the article referenced in that thread maintained the law is written ambiguously enough that it could actually be used to hold USC's.............

Yep that's how I read it too. This peice of legislation is more than just about the non USC. Wish I could find it again in its full context.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety

deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Edited November 16, 2006 by aussiewench

[MrMrsKnight 0]

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety

deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

wow