US: Immigrants may be held indefinitely

[Alex+R 0]

We could point and counter point this till the ends of time, i know what i am willing to do to maintain my overall freedom, do you?

How do you see giving up your civil liberties as, in the long term, helping you maintain your overall freedom? Do you feel that if terrorists are not caught or are caught through other methods, they will take away our freedoms entirely? If so, how?

[Peikko 1,575]

No one is suggesting that the vast majority of people will ever be affected by this. However, one mistake is all it takes, and it could be you.

I guess some people think that they are infallible if they are good. And people think I'm niave...

[mawilson 2,133]

it is true, what do you have to worry about.

The government can keep record of the numbers you call and use that

information against you in the future.

Do you really want them to know that you called the ACLU, the EFF or

even an abortion clinic (if abortion becomes illegal at some point in the future)?

Not to mention calls to rape victim support lines, alcoholics anonymous, drug

addict hotlines, and other things that could conceivably be used against you

in the future (or present).

Do you know that the U.S. government secretly wiretapped Martin Luther King

in the name of national security? It was precisely the sorry history of the

surveillance and wiretapping of dissenters which led to a law that specifically

requires the President to seek court approval for wiretaps of Americans,

even for national security investigations. George Bush believes that he is

not bound by this law.

[WifeOHunkyJohn 2]

If you live your life being afraid of the "what if", you become a prisoner of your own life. Live instead aware of the rules, the sacrifices and the compromises, knowing that you are neither a threat or a terrorist. It is the media scaremongering that determines the public reaction to the rules, but let me ask you this...

Can you name anyone you know who has been directly affected by the wiretapping, and the indefinite detention? I can't, therefore I can assume that, not only do I know wonderful and law-abiding people who are neither a threat to man nor beast, I also am assured that people are not just vanishing on their way to work, never to be seen again. Trust me, if the latter were an actual reality, the whole world and their gran would be up in arms about it.

So I don't worry. I'm not naive, nor am I brainwashed or duped or manipulated by any external force. I am, however, more interested in making my life and the life of my SO the best it can be, and have no concerns that anything we do or say will result in our indefinite incarceration or phones being tapped. The cost of freedom is the price you are willing to pay.

This is mine.

[mawilson 2,133]

Can you name anyone you know who has been directly affected by the wiretapping, and the indefinite detention?

It doesn't matter. This is how it begins.

[Alex+R 0]

People *are* vanishing on their way to work. Now they're in U.S. detention centers. Most of them aren't American citizens though. So I guess they don't count, right?

[WifeOHunkyJohn 2]

People *are* vanishing on their way to work. Now they're in U.S. detention centers. Most of them aren't American citizens though. So I guess they don't count, right?

Please quote your sources

[Caladan 19]

How can you have no recourse, if you live a good life and are accountable for your actions, how could you be "accidentally nabbed". If some one is going to set you up, I would hope they do it right.

Because the government isn't perfect. They make mistakes. Accidents happen. Those guarentees are there to protect us against these imperfections, mistakes and accidents.

By your logic, J&A, we should not require trials. After all, the good policemen would never make a mistake. Keep your nose clean, right? There's never a case of mistakes.

Come on. I can't believe that anyone who has been through this immigration process can just blindly believe that the government never makes mistakes. I'm sure they'll execute IMBRA perfectly. Who would authorize a law and forget to make the new forms?!

Are we so scared that we'll give up the right to even have one measly check to make sure they have the right person? One little hearing where the government gets to tell you what you're charged of?

[John & Annie 0]

Umm, yeah, if you want to give up some of your "sleep," then by all means, go ahead and give yours up. I myself will fight for all the "sleep" entitled to me.

You probably are a nice person but obviously do not have much of a work ethic. Why are you coming here then?

[John & Annie 0]

How can you have no recourse, if you live a good life and are accountable for your actions, how could you be "accidentally nabbed". If some one is going to set you up, I would hope they do it right.

Because the government isn't perfect. They make mistakes. Accidents happen. Those guarentees are there to protect us against these imperfections, mistakes and accidents.

By your logic, J&A, we should not require trials. After all, the good policemen would never make a mistake. Keep your nose clean, right? There's never a case of mistakes.

Come on. I can't believe that anyone who has been through this immigration process can just blindly believe that the government never makes mistakes. I'm sure they'll execute IMBRA perfectly. Who would authorize a law and forget to make the new forms?!

Are we so scared that we'll give up the right to even have one measly check to make sure they have the right person? One little hearing where the government gets to tell you what you're charged of?

now you are taking it to the nth degree, i do not nor have I said that.

Some people are not honest and will take advantage of you. You need to be wise. My point was that rather than moan and groan about what could happen and rumors, find some truth.

The US Government is far from perfect, and so am I. oops I said it, I am not perfect.....ok, there it is. Ahhh, I feel better, its out in the open.

Nobody is perfect, but rather than complain, I would rather find the positive, that does not mean I am the type who is lead around by my nose.

And where are yopu getting off saying all of this, do you know, personally anyone who has disappeared?

The fact remains, if you come into my country with the intent to blow up inocent people, who are just trying to scrape by, yes, I agree. You get some of your priviledges violated. Cause you know what, the people at GUITMO are eating better that the guys in the caves. The do not have to look over there shoulder while praying.

I for one believe very strongly that when you are in another persons country, you honor them, by trying to practice thier customs if it is not offensive. You learn the language, you do what ever you can to make it work. Why, cause in alot of countrys there is not the grace we have here. You tell my why is was I have a frined who had to have his arm broken and mangled for life for getting a girl pregnant in the Phillipienes. You tell me why, I have had friends beat for being a differnet religion. You tell my why a friend had to go to prison until a child died cause he altered the childs Karma by saving him from a car hitting him?

I have said it one, I will say it again. the US is far from perfect. But I would rather be no other place.

Respectfully,

John

[Alex+R 0]

Umm, yeah, if you want to give up some of your "sleep," then by all means, go ahead and give yours up. I myself will fight for all the "sleep" entitled to me.

You probably are a nice person but obviously do not have much of a work ethic. Why are you coming here then?

1. That's a horrible thing to say to a Midwesterner. We value hard work.

2. Rahma is a Midwesterner and an American.

3. The fact that you even think that analogy is valid says a lot more about you than it does about anyone who disagrees with you.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

How can you have no recourse, if you live a good life and are accountable for your actions, how could you be "accidentally nabbed". If some one is going to set you up, I would hope they do it right.

Because the government isn't perfect. They make mistakes. Accidents happen. Those guarentees are there to protect us against these imperfections, mistakes and accidents.

By your logic, J&A, we should not require trials. After all, the good policemen would never make a mistake. Keep your nose clean, right? There's never a case of mistakes.

Come on. I can't believe that anyone who has been through this immigration process can just blindly believe that the government never makes mistakes. I'm sure they'll execute IMBRA perfectly. Who would authorize a law and forget to make the new forms?!

Are we so scared that we'll give up the right to even have one measly check to make sure they have the right person? One little hearing where the government gets to tell you what you're charged of?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

"Just live a good life" and mind your own business works out well until they accidentally nab you for a crime you did not commit and you have no recourse.

It also sounds like the same argument for wire tapping. As long as you're not a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about...

it is true, what do you have to worry about.

Oh and by the way the wire tapping policy is only on people that have clear ties with terrorism. it is not the media hyped, "you could be tapped right now" thing that is being presented.

How can you have no recourse, if you live a good life and are accountable for your actions, how could you be "accidentally nabbed". If some one is going to set you up, I would hope they do it right.

Everyone should 'worry' about this. Its all well and good saying that "if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about" but that requires an implicit trust in the government that it will not overstep the bounds of their authority, not just now, but in the future. And I'm not just talking about the Bush administration - corrupt and incompentant they may be, but that's beside the point. Its dangerous to weaken the institutions and principles of our democracy with these kinds of laws - because it leaves the way open for dangerous abuses by extremely unscrupulous and unethical people. There's a common "if it hasn't happened before, why should it happen now?" element to this - but clearly, whether it has or hasn't is irrelevant - by creating the possibility that it could.

Adolf Hitler, for example, completely deconstructed the constitution of the German state (the Weimar constitution) by the enactment of two pieces of legislation that effectively gave him ultimate power. That constitution BTW, is acknowledged to be one of the most democratic pieces of political legislation in the 20th century.... and we know how badly that whole thing ended...

So while you can feel secure in the knowledge that you won't be persecuted if you've done nothing wrong what happens when the definitions of "right and wrong" shift to include anyone who even hints at expressing a negative opinion about the government? That view, by the way, is one that already resonates with quite a lot of ordinary americans - who label any political opposition to be disloyal or traitorous.

Edited November 15, 2006 by erekose

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

How can you have no recourse, if you live a good life and are accountable for your actions, how could you be "accidentally nabbed".

How? Ask the German citizen Khalid El-Masri. His only crime was that some bozo at the CIA mistook him for Khalid Al-Masri.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

How can you have no recourse, if you live a good life and are accountable for your actions, how could you be "accidentally nabbed".

How? Ask the German citizen Khalid El-Masri. His only crime was that some bozo at the CIA mistook him for Khalid Al-Masri.

Yeah that whole 'due process' thing might have come in handy there