Voters in Colorado, Idaho, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Virginia and Wisconsin ban same-sex marriage

[ceriserose 1]

Why does it keep coming back to whether or not one is born homosexual or chooses to be homosexual? I don't understand why that matters.

Usually because if it's a choice, then one has free will to choose otherwise.

- If I'm born blind, I can't help bumping into a wall before I've been taught to walk with my "disability".

- If I'm sighted but put a blindfold on and bump into a wall, it's my fault.

Of course, if we use Gary's logic, a blind person isn't "normal" either...

[vocalize 0]

There are websites for stuff like that.... sorry all my porn is private..

http://google.com is your friend...

I hope you don't consider that porn

[garya505 2]

Why does it keep coming back to whether or not one is born homosexual or chooses to be homosexual? I don't understand why that matters.

Usually because if it's a choice, then one has free will to choose otherwise.

- If I'm born blind, I can't help bumping into a wall before I've been taught to walk with my "disability".

- If I'm sighted but put a blindfold on and bump into a wall, it's my fault.

Of course, if we use Gary's logic, a blind person isn't "normal" either...

normal

–adjective

1. conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

2. serving to establish a standard.

3. Psychology. a. approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment. b. free from any mental disorder; sane.

4. Biology, Medicine/Medical. a. free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation. b. of natural occurrence.

5. Mathematics. a. being at right angles, as a line; perpendicular. b. of the nature of or pertaining to a mathematical normal. c. (of an orthogonal system of real functions) defined so that the integral of the square of the absolute value of any function is 1. d. (of a topological space) having the property that corresponding to every pair of disjoint closed sets are two disjoint open sets, each containing one of the closed sets. e. (of a subgroup) having the property that the same set of elements results when all the elements of the subgroup are operated on consistently on the left and consistently on the right by any element of the group; invariant.

6. Chemistry. a. (of a solution) containing one equivalent weight of the constituent in question in one liter of solution. b. pertaining to an aliphatic hydrocarbon having a straight unbranched carbon chain, each carbon atom of which is joined to no more than two other carbon atoms. c. of or pertaining to a neutral salt in which any replaceable hydroxyl groups or hydrogen atoms have been replaced by other groups or atoms, as sodium sulfate, Na2SO4.

–noun

7. the average or mean: Production may fall below normal.

8. the standard or type.

9. Mathematics. a. a perpendicular line or plane, esp. one perpendicular to a tangent line of a curve, or a tangent plane of a surface, at the point of contact. b. the portion of this perpendicular line included between its point of contact with the curve and the x-axis.

[ceriserose 1]

Why does it keep coming back to whether or not one is born homosexual or chooses to be homosexual? I don't understand why that matters.

Usually because if it's a choice, then one has free will to choose otherwise.

- If I'm born blind, I can't help bumping into a wall before I've been taught to walk with my "disability".

- If I'm sighted but put a blindfold on and bump into a wall, it's my fault.

Of course, if we use Gary's logic, a blind person isn't "normal" either...

normal

–adjective

1. conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

2. serving to establish a standard.

3. Psychology. a. approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment. b. free from any mental disorder; sane.

4. Biology, Medicine/Medical. a. free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation. b. of natural occurrence.

5. Mathematics. a. being at right angles, as a line; perpendicular. b. of the nature of or pertaining to a mathematical normal. c. (of an orthogonal system of real functions) defined so that the integral of the square of the absolute value of any function is 1. d. (of a topological space) having the property that corresponding to every pair of disjoint closed sets are two disjoint open sets, each containing one of the closed sets. e. (of a subgroup) having the property that the same set of elements results when all the elements of the subgroup are operated on consistently on the left and consistently on the right by any element of the group; invariant.

6. Chemistry. a. (of a solution) containing one equivalent weight of the constituent in question in one liter of solution. b. pertaining to an aliphatic hydrocarbon having a straight unbranched carbon chain, each carbon atom of which is joined to no more than two other carbon atoms. c. of or pertaining to a neutral salt in which any replaceable hydroxyl groups or hydrogen atoms have been replaced by other groups or atoms, as sodium sulfate, Na2SO4.

–noun

7. the average or mean: Production may fall below normal.

8. the standard or type.

9. Mathematics. a. a perpendicular line or plane, esp. one perpendicular to a tangent line of a curve, or a tangent plane of a surface, at the point of contact. b. the portion of this perpendicular line included between its point of contact with the curve and the x-axis.

Gary, I said logic, not definition. But thank you for regurgitating part of the dictionary without any reference to what you mean. From what you've posted on this thread you appear to be advocating that homosexuality, despite being around for thousands of years, is not 'normal' human behavior. I would humbly submit that something that has been around for that long and prevalent across races and gender would suggest otherwise. Just because we live at a time where it is less socially acceptable than say, in ancient Greece, doesn't mean it's an abnormal human activity.

Jenn, the definition highlighted above is why it's so important to some if one is born homosexual or not. It helps to break down whether or not it's truly deviant behavior in need of 'help' or if it's something one cannot help due to genetics. I guess there's more mercy for them if they can't help it? I don't know.

I can't remember if homosexuality has been removed from the DSM-IV or not. At one point in the not-so-distant past it was determined to be a psychological disorder.

edited because I missed a word

Edited November 10, 2006 by ceriserose

[Jenn! 918]

Jenn, the definition highlighted above is why it's so important to some if one is homosexual or not. It helps to break down whether or not it's truly deviant behavior in need of 'help' or if it's something one cannot help due to genetics. I guess there's more mercy for them if they can't help it? I don't know.

I honestly don't know whether or not it is something that one is born with or not. But for me, it doesn't make a difference either way. I think it's possible that it is a choice, but that doesn't mean that it's deviant behavior. I think you're right about the mercy thing. I just can't wrap my head around it.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I find it quite interesting that some of the loudest opponents of gay marriage on this thread are married (or planning to marry) someone of a different race.

Interracial marriage was illegal in many states until very recently -- in fact, only in 1967 did the Supreme Court make it illegal for states to make laws prohibiting interracial marriage (then overturning the laws of 15 states). In those days many Christians believed that their opposition to interracial marriage was biblically based, and in fact the rhetoric was very similar to some of the arguments being used here.

[mybackpages 0]

Jenn, the definition highlighted above is why it's so important to some if one is homosexual or not. It helps to break down whether or not it's truly deviant behavior in need of 'help' or if it's something one cannot help due to genetics. I guess there's more mercy for them if they can't help it? I don't know.

I honestly don't know whether or not it is something that one is born with or not. But for me, it doesn't make a difference either way. I think it's possible that it is a choice, but that doesn't mean that it's deviant behavior. I think you're right about the mercy thing. I just can't wrap my head around it.

Homosexulaity is no longer considered a mental disorder but that was only since the 1970s.

There are many GLB activist that refuse to debate if it a matter of choice or not. For them it is discrimination, and the deciding factor is not whether it is choice or not. It is a matter of equal protection under the law.

ETA: some in the gay community argue if it is proven to be biological, then the argument becomes that it is a disbility or genetic flaw. Will we start testing for sexual orientation before birth?

Edited November 10, 2006 by mybackpages

[Jenn! 918]

There are many GLB activist that refuse to debate if it a matter of choice or not. For them it is discrimination, and the deciding factor is not whether it is choice or not. It is a matter of equal protection under the law.

Yes, this is what I mean. The whole choice debate seems irrelevant to me.

[ceriserose 1]

Jenn, the definition highlighted above is why it's so important to some if one is homosexual or not. It helps to break down whether or not it's truly deviant behavior in need of 'help' or if it's something one cannot help due to genetics. I guess there's more mercy for them if they can't help it? I don't know.

I honestly don't know whether or not it is something that one is born with or not. But for me, it doesn't make a difference either way. I think it's possible that it is a choice, but that doesn't mean that it's deviant behavior. I think you're right about the mercy thing. I just can't wrap my head around it.

I don't think it makes any difference either, and personally homosexuality doesn't bother me (I mean, one can't grow up in Vancouver BC with any sort of gay stereotypes in place...the community is so prevalent and varied that the "effeminate gay man", "#######-butch lesbian woman" are just caracatures. ).

I think that it comes mostly down to fear of the unknown and prejudice, and that will be impacted by the individual's need to control their own environment. What amuses me is that many people know and work with homosexuals and have no idea.

[Jenn! 918]

What amuses me is that many people know and work with homosexuals and have no idea.

The horror!

[garya505 2]

Why does it keep coming back to whether or not one is born homosexual or chooses to be homosexual? I don't understand why that matters.

Usually because if it's a choice, then one has free will to choose otherwise.

- If I'm born blind, I can't help bumping into a wall before I've been taught to walk with my "disability".

- If I'm sighted but put a blindfold on and bump into a wall, it's my fault.

Of course, if we use Gary's logic, a blind person isn't "normal" either...

normal

–adjective

1. conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

2. serving to establish a standard.

3. Psychology. a. approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment. b. free from any mental disorder; sane.

4. Biology, Medicine/Medical. a. free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation. b. of natural occurrence.

5. Mathematics. a. being at right angles, as a line; perpendicular. b. of the nature of or pertaining to a mathematical normal. c. (of an orthogonal system of real functions) defined so that the integral of the square of the absolute value of any function is 1. d. (of a topological space) having the property that corresponding to every pair of disjoint closed sets are two disjoint open sets, each containing one of the closed sets. e. (of a subgroup) having the property that the same set of elements results when all the elements of the subgroup are operated on consistently on the left and consistently on the right by any element of the group; invariant.

6. Chemistry. a. (of a solution) containing one equivalent weight of the constituent in question in one liter of solution. b. pertaining to an aliphatic hydrocarbon having a straight unbranched carbon chain, each carbon atom of which is joined to no more than two other carbon atoms. c. of or pertaining to a neutral salt in which any replaceable hydroxyl groups or hydrogen atoms have been replaced by other groups or atoms, as sodium sulfate, Na2SO4.

–noun

7. the average or mean: Production may fall below normal.

8. the standard or type.

9. Mathematics. a. a perpendicular line or plane, esp. one perpendicular to a tangent line of a curve, or a tangent plane of a surface, at the point of contact. b. the portion of this perpendicular line included between its point of contact with the curve and the x-axis.

Gary, I said logic, not definition. But thank you for regurgitating part of the dictionary without any reference to what you mean. From what you've posted on this thread you appear to be advocating that homosexuality, despite being around for thousands of years, is not 'normal' human behavior. I would humbly submit that something that has been around for that long and prevalent across races and gender would suggest otherwise. Just because we live at a time where it is less socially acceptable than say, in ancient Greece, doesn't mean it's an abnormal human activity.

Jenn, the definition highlighted above is why it's so important to some if one is born homosexual or not. It helps to break down whether or not it's truly deviant behavior in need of 'help' or if it's something one cannot help due to genetics. I guess there's more mercy for them if they can't help it? I don't know.

I can't remember if homosexuality has been removed from the DSM-IV or not. At one point in the not-so-distant past it was determined to be a psychological disorder.

edited because I missed a word

It's not Biology, it's Psychology. And saying it's normal behavior doesn't make it so.

I find it quite interesting that some of the loudest opponents of gay marriage on this thread are married (or planning to marry) someone of a different race.

Interracial marriage was illegal in many states until very recently -- in fact, only in 1967 did the Supreme Court make it illegal for states to make laws prohibiting interracial marriage (then overturning the laws of 15 states). In those days many Christians believed that their opposition to interracial marriage was biblically based, and in fact the rhetoric was very similar to some of the arguments being used here.

Here we go again, with the race thing.

Jenn, the definition highlighted above is why it's so important to some if one is homosexual or not. It helps to break down whether or not it's truly deviant behavior in need of 'help' or if it's something one cannot help due to genetics. I guess there's more mercy for them if they can't help it? I don't know.

I honestly don't know whether or not it is something that one is born with or not. But for me, it doesn't make a difference either way. I think it's possible that it is a choice, but that doesn't mean that it's deviant behavior. I think you're right about the mercy thing. I just can't wrap my head around it.

Homosexulaity is no longer considered a mental disorder but that was only since the 1970s.

There are many GLB activist that refuse to debate if it a matter of choice or not. For them it is discrimination, and the deciding factor is not whether it is choice or not. It is a matter of equal protection under the law.

ETA: some in the gay community argue if it is proven to be biological, then the argument becomes that it is a disbility or genetic flaw. Will we start testing for sexual orientation before birth?

OK, then where would you stop? Would you grant equal rights to homosexuals but not polygamists? If so, why?

[Cristy 4]

Why does it keep coming back to whether or not one is born homosexual or chooses to be homosexual? I don't understand why that matters.

Usually because if it's a choice, then one has free will to choose otherwise.

- If I'm born blind, I can't help bumping into a wall before I've been taught to walk with my "disability".

- If I'm sighted but put a blindfold on and bump into a wall, it's my fault.

Of course, if we use Gary's logic, a blind person isn't "normal" either...

normal

–adjective

1. conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

2. serving to establish a standard.

3. Psychology. a. approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment. b. free from any mental disorder; sane.

4. Biology, Medicine/Medical. a. free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation. b. of natural occurrence.

5. Mathematics. a. being at right angles, as a line; perpendicular. b. of the nature of or pertaining to a mathematical normal. c. (of an orthogonal system of real functions) defined so that the integral of the square of the absolute value of any function is 1. d. (of a topological space) having the property that corresponding to every pair of disjoint closed sets are two disjoint open sets, each containing one of the closed sets. e. (of a subgroup) having the property that the same set of elements results when all the elements of the subgroup are operated on consistently on the left and consistently on the right by any element of the group; invariant.

6. Chemistry. a. (of a solution) containing one equivalent weight of the constituent in question in one liter of solution. b. pertaining to an aliphatic hydrocarbon having a straight unbranched carbon chain, each carbon atom of which is joined to no more than two other carbon atoms. c. of or pertaining to a neutral salt in which any replaceable hydroxyl groups or hydrogen atoms have been replaced by other groups or atoms, as sodium sulfate, Na2SO4.

–noun

7. the average or mean: Production may fall below normal.

8. the standard or type.

9. Mathematics. a. a perpendicular line or plane, esp. one perpendicular to a tangent line of a curve, or a tangent plane of a surface, at the point of contact. b. the portion of this perpendicular line included between its point of contact with the curve and the x-axis.

Gary, I said logic, not definition. But thank you for regurgitating part of the dictionary without any reference to what you mean. From what you've posted on this thread you appear to be advocating that homosexuality, despite being around for thousands of years, is not 'normal' human behavior. I would humbly submit that something that has been around for that long and prevalent across races and gender would suggest otherwise. Just because we live at a time where it is less socially acceptable than say, in ancient Greece, doesn't mean it's an abnormal human activity.

Jenn, the definition highlighted above is why it's so important to some if one is born homosexual or not. It helps to break down whether or not it's truly deviant behavior in need of 'help' or if it's something one cannot help due to genetics. I guess there's more mercy for them if they can't help it? I don't know.

I can't remember if homosexuality has been removed from the DSM-IV or not. At one point in the not-so-distant past it was determined to be a psychological disorder.

edited because I missed a word

It's not Biology, it's Psychology. And saying it's normal behavior doesn't make it so.

I find it quite interesting that some of the loudest opponents of gay marriage on this thread are married (or planning to marry) someone of a different race.

Interracial marriage was illegal in many states until very recently -- in fact, only in 1967 did the Supreme Court make it illegal for states to make laws prohibiting interracial marriage (then overturning the laws of 15 states). In those days many Christians believed that their opposition to interracial marriage was biblically based, and in fact the rhetoric was very similar to some of the arguments being used here.

Here we go again, with the race thing.

Again, the psychology community removed homosexuality as a disorder years back.

I agree Jenn I don't care if they chose it or are born gay....that is irrelevant.

[ceriserose 1]

Homosexulaity is no longer considered a mental disorder but that was only since the 1970s.

Yeah, I couldn't remember when it was removed from the manual. I only skimmed the link below but it confirms what you write.

Interesting too, from the article:

"...this change reflected the point of view that homosexuality was to be considered a mental disorder only if it was subjectively disturbing to the individual. The decision of the APA Board...took place in the context of new sociological data, biological inferences, and de-emphasis of psychoanalytic observations. It also took place in an atmosphere of confrontation. Beginning in 1970, various gay activist groups demonstrated....at APA meetings. At issue was the conceptualization of homosexuality as an illness..."

Ask the Expert

[mybackpages 0]

OK, then where would you stop? Would you grant equal rights to homosexuals but not polygamists? If so, why?

have you been taking lessons from talk radio on how to cause a diversion in a discussion when your argument is working?

[ceriserose 1]

Why does it keep coming back to whether or not one is born homosexual or chooses to be homosexual? I don't understand why that matters.

Usually because if it's a choice, then one has free will to choose otherwise.

- If I'm born blind, I can't help bumping into a wall before I've been taught to walk with my "disability".

- If I'm sighted but put a blindfold on and bump into a wall, it's my fault.

Of course, if we use Gary's logic, a blind person isn't "normal" either...

normal

–adjective

1. conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

2. serving to establish a standard.

3. Psychology. a. approximately average in any psychological trait, as intelligence, personality, or emotional adjustment. b. free from any mental disorder; sane.

4. Biology, Medicine/Medical. a. free from any infection or other form of disease or malformation, or from experimental therapy or manipulation. b. of natural occurrence.

5. Mathematics. a. being at right angles, as a line; perpendicular. b. of the nature of or pertaining to a mathematical normal. c. (of an orthogonal system of real functions) defined so that the integral of the square of the absolute value of any function is 1. d. (of a topological space) having the property that corresponding to every pair of disjoint closed sets are two disjoint open sets, each containing one of the closed sets. e. (of a subgroup) having the property that the same set of elements results when all the elements of the subgroup are operated on consistently on the left and consistently on the right by any element of the group; invariant.

6. Chemistry. a. (of a solution) containing one equivalent weight of the constituent in question in one liter of solution. b. pertaining to an aliphatic hydrocarbon having a straight unbranched carbon chain, each carbon atom of which is joined to no more than two other carbon atoms. c. of or pertaining to a neutral salt in which any replaceable hydroxyl groups or hydrogen atoms have been replaced by other groups or atoms, as sodium sulfate, Na2SO4.

–noun

7. the average or mean: Production may fall below normal.

8. the standard or type.

9. Mathematics. a. a perpendicular line or plane, esp. one perpendicular to a tangent line of a curve, or a tangent plane of a surface, at the point of contact. b. the portion of this perpendicular line included between its point of contact with the curve and the x-axis.

Gary, I said logic, not definition. But thank you for regurgitating part of the dictionary without any reference to what you mean. From what you've posted on this thread you appear to be advocating that homosexuality, despite being around for thousands of years, is not 'normal' human behavior. I would humbly submit that something that has been around for that long and prevalent across races and gender would suggest otherwise. Just because we live at a time where it is less socially acceptable than say, in ancient Greece, doesn't mean it's an abnormal human activity.

Jenn, the definition highlighted above is why it's so important to some if one is born homosexual or not. It helps to break down whether or not it's truly deviant behavior in need of 'help' or if it's something one cannot help due to genetics. I guess there's more mercy for them if they can't help it? I don't know.

I can't remember if homosexuality has been removed from the DSM-IV or not. At one point in the not-so-distant past it was determined to be a psychological disorder.

edited because I missed a word

It's not Biology, it's Psychology. And saying it's normal behavior doesn't make it so.

And by that token, saying it's abnormal behavior doesn't make it so either. Assuming neither you nor I are psychologists or biologists or amateur 'experts' in either field, let's go by the accepted documentation from such. By the way, it's actually both biology and psychology...depending on whether it's something someone is born with or if it's a choice (experts haven't determined).

Just because *you* think it's abnormal doesn't make it so. Just because *I* think it's normal doesn't make it so. Look to the experts in the field or the record of human history.

- Biologists have determined it occurs in the animal kingdom and within the realm of ** sapiens.

- Psychologists do not classify it as a mental disorder.

- History shows that despite societal acceptance, there have been homosexuals the world over, through thousands of years.

*shrug* I don't think I'm going to win you over by any means, Gary. Not much of what you have put forth here has been anything more than "it is because I say it is". More power to you; I'm just glad that you aren't making decisions on behalf of anyone besides yourself based on that.

OK, then where would you stop? Would you grant equal rights to homosexuals but not polygamists? If so, why?

Sure. As long as all parties were consensual (including being of a legal age to consent). It really is none of my business as long as it doesn't impact me.

Honestly, why would anyone want to lessen the rights of people who ostensibly can make their own decisions? I don't agree with most organized religion, but don't believe that a person should be denied their right to practice what they choose, provided it doesn't harm others. If half the U.S. wanted to run around in chicken suits proclaiming to chipmunks as their divine calling all the wonders of the god Spaghnum, why not? If people want to pray on a plane, as long as I can carry on about my business unmolested, then why not?