Ban hands and feet

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

How many GSW's have you cared for? What is your background with educational courses like the military's Combat Casualty Care Course or Battlefield Medicine?

Well in a very younger life I was an EMT. After that I was a 11B Infantryman, then later an Infantry Officer .recondo school Ft brag early 80;s. Saw a weapon or two and the results of what those weapons could do a few times.

Although I am sure it pales to in comparison to your vast knowledge and wealth of worldly experience.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Bingo....... Deformity of the round to put it simply is the key .. Male hole in... large hole out . Hard stuff to penetrate, soft stuff to cause massive damage

Military rounds are FMJ, designed for penetration, and wound primarily by causing bleeding and less traumatic injuries. Hunting rounds are designed to deliver blunt force trauma over a large area. Military rounds do not always transfer all their kinetic energy to the target the way a softer tipped and thicker based round would.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

Military rounds are FMJ, designed for penetration, and wound primarily by causing bleeding and less traumatic injuries. Hunting rounds are designed to deliver blunt force trauma over a large area. Military rounds do not always transfer all their kinetic energy to the target the way a softer tipped and thicker based round would.

depends on the mission but yes a majority of standard issue military small arms ammunition is or at least was FMJ or a cousin of it. Not sure what they do now days, seems like I read something about a new 65 grain bullet, that was green tipped. Have not really kept up with the new stuff in the In the infantwee.

[himher 634]

Wow i'm impressed you're quite the physicist. Except in the real world 100% transfer of energy from the end of a rifle barrel to another object is impossible.

Penetration depth data (geleton I believe) is available for both rounds. From Vo (initial velocity) and penetration depth deceleration can be calculated. The .223 round, in the geleton and in field studies doesnt decelerate fast enough to stay in the body, meaning it exits, carrying some of your kinetic energy with it. In come cases, a lot of your kinetic energy.

So, with this in mind, you might want to re-run your "calculation" assuming, as is done in the testing, that the geleton properties are nominally equivalent to a human body, calculate how much energy is transferred to a body of varying thicknesses, and you can actually calculate how fat your perp needs to be to absorb, as you say is your "normal" condition, 100% of the bullet energy.

While you're doing it calculate the two side by side - energy absorbed from the 9 buckshot vs. energy absorbed by the bullet. See which one is greater.

That's way more fun than your "simplifying assumption" isn't it? Happy trails!

NOTE: Momentum transfer is way more entertaining then physics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy

Edited December 30, 2012 by himher

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Wow i'm impressed you're quite the physicist. Except in the real world 100% transfer of energy from the end of a rifle barrel to another object is impossible.

Penetration depth data (geleton I believe) is available for both rounds.

link? lol sport.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

All this talk of penetration is making me horny.

[Dakine10 5,452]

depends on the mission but yes a majority of standard issue military small arms ammunition is or at least was FMJ or a cousin of it. Not sure what they do now days, seems like I read something about a new 65 grain bullet, that was green tipped. Have not really kept up with the new stuff in the In the infantwee.

Just out of curiosity, how would you go about banning hands and feet?

[james&olya 1,121]

it exits, carrying some of your kinetic energy with it. In come cases, a lot of your kinetic energy.

NOTE: Momentum transfer is way more entertaining then physics

#######?!! It does not carry any of 'your' kinetic energy. It may retain some of its 'own' kinetic energy depending on multiple factors.

Momentum transfer IS physics!

Is geleton any relation to gelatin? Some people I know resemble that a great deal. Tissues other than fat have different effects regarding 'energy transfer'! Bone in particular absorbs a lot of energy!

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

All this talk of penetration is making me horny.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

Don't tease me.

[Ban Hammer 13,342]

And yet again you are wrong. As I said before, the high velocity projectile creates a wide cone of destruction when it strikes, the lower velocity one does not. Velocity matters a lot. Many more people survive one or two hits from a handgun than from an assault rifle. No children at Sandy Hook who were hit survived! In addition, high velocity projectiles have far greater potential to have lethal consequences for unintended targets well beyond the range of the intended target. Taking a full load of 00 at close range might be similar to a single high velocity round in damage done, I will give you that much. Otherwise you are wrong!

have you even shot anything at close range with a shotgun, even birdshot? a bird i shot in south texas once at a range of 15 feet with 7 1/2 birdshot just flat disappeared. rattle on about velocity and so on, but at close range the shotgun rules. if i had to make a choice between the two, i'd rather be shot with a .223 round than a 12 gauge 00 buck at close range.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

have you even shot anything at close range with a shotgun, even birdshot? a bird i shot in south texas once at a range of 15 feet with 7 1/2 birdshot just flat disappeared. rattle on about velocity and so on, but at close range the shotgun rules. if i had to make a choice between the two, i'd rather be shot with a .223 round than a 12 gauge 00 buck at close range.

That's why I asked him that question several posts back. I'd take my chances with a .223 at close range. If I'm lucky it won't hit anything vital. A load of buckshot at 10-15 feet is going to be ugly no matter where it hits you.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

Google Images > Shotgun victims

I won't post the pics, but it's easy enough to use google images.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

#######?!! It does not carry any of 'your' kinetic energy. It may retain some of its 'own' kinetic energy depending on multiple factors.

Momentum transfer IS physics!

Is geleton any relation to gelatin? Some people I know resemble that a great deal. Tissues other than fat have different effects regarding 'energy transfer'! Bone in particular absorbs a lot of energy!

I bet if I took Google away you couldn't spell ballistics.

[himher 634]

Who cares about spelling (laughing). We were talking about transfer of energy and deceleration of objects in what is equivalent to viscous fluids.

I noticed you left the science behind and jumped right on the spelling. I wonder why?

Don't be lazy dude. Show your breathless audience how dam smart you are and look up the link to the testing yourself. The physical props of the material are available and I will give you what appears to be a much needed hint. You need the viscosity and the gravity difference between the moving object and the fixed object as well as the initial velocity. For simplification I will let you use muzzle velocity but a real man could apply the same equation using the drag coefficient of air and calculate the actual velocity. With this in mind since it's your theory you can also run your own calcs.

IF you set up the energy balance at tiny increments of time you can easily calculate the exit velocity at a fixed distance and easily calculate the net energy transferred from the moving object to the fixed one at exit time.

That's called the calculus. It's better done in Excel. The integration is.......wow

Make sure you use turbulent flow across a moving object roughly equivalent to a sphere through a fluid with roughly the equivalent properties of the human body. NOTE for your what appears to be growing file: Physics really hasnt been able to explain turbulent flow yet (in spite of your application of basic physics to the problem) but luckily it has been curve-fitted for you so there's an easily found but alas complicated equation for it.

Again - have fun and happy trails. No charge for telling you what to do and how to do it.

I bet if I took Google away you couldn't spell ballistics.