Preventing Violence in Our Schools

[Dakine10 5,452]

If only guns weren't protected by the Constitution right? LOL @ those who live in a bubble.

Really. You think there are no restrictions on guns? Take one with you to the airport next time you go. Take a fully automatic weapon just for good measure.

[Dakine10 5,452]

"they"? LOL

There is always a "They" for you people. One "They" is responsible for what nuts do. Another "They" needs their taxes to go up to balance the budget. Another "They" needs to protect the streets. Some other "They" needs to serve the country.

"They" meaning the ones who would need to vote on an amendment. "They" wouldn't need to have that vote.

Again it was a theoretical question and response. If you have a point to make, can you please do so? I'm not intersted in discussing semantics or grammar. I would like to give this one last shot at a serious discussion, but it's getting a bit annoying bantering back and forth about nothing.

[james&olya 1,121]

The other element is the psychotropic prescription drugs on these social outcasts, just like the Colorado shooters. Big Pharma is one of the largest campaign contributors and largest source of media advertising dollars. So the politicians and media have been concealing this link between mass shootings and legal drugs.

Of course there is a correlation between psychotropic drugs and mass shootings. The link is mental illness! The mentally ill are far more likely to commit these types of mass murder. They are also far more likely to be precribed psychotropics. So yes, of course there is a correlation. But that is NOT evidence of causation! Those of you with limited scientific literacy and impaired logical ability are far too quick to jump to some of these conclusions!

But I recognize that a true scientific understanding of these complex issues is not the point of your argument. Rather, you seek to deflect attention and change the subject from the issue of assault weapons in the hands of every wacko out there! The general public has been slow to catch on but finally they have been awakened and the days of freedom to buy and possess legally such instruments of easy, mass lethality may be numbered.

[james&olya 1,121]

One interesting point the author raises though is about the 1st person shooter type video games. He's taken a lot of flak for labelling them as "murder simulators", but the point he makes is - it's not a natural thing to point a gun and shoot another human being. It takes a lot of psychological training to desensitize someone to that ie. most people need to be trained to kill. At a certain level, playing a video game where you kill realistic targets over and over may cause the same type of desensitization.

I don't know - I played a lot of violent video games and watched those cartoons too. Back then, it was pretty easy to separate pixellated blobs and cartons from reality. I've seen how realistic these games are nowadays but I don't really play them. He may be on to something.

He is not. These video games, while popular here, are even more popular in Japan and many western European countries. Their murder rates, individual and mass, are a tiny fraction of ours. They may even serve to allow people to vent their hostilities. I still think they are cr@p but they are not why we have a murder problem.

How can it be that everywhere you look it is debate about guns and almost nowhere are drugs and mental disorders seriously discussed as a public policy problem? Pretty obvious to me.

Yes, it is obvious! Why can't you see it?

[james&olya 1,121]

I'm not sure to what extent "well adjusted" people are involved in shootings anyway. I don't think thats the point the author is making. I don't think any one is suggesting that violent games make somebody snap. However there is some data to suggest he is on to something. Even the US military recognizes the value of using these realistic games as part of training. Specifically, violence is a lot easier if you are already desensitized to it.

There were 109 school shootings in the 10 years after Columbine. Most of them involved a "trouble" kid and easy access to guns. I've said all along that's the problem. Many of them could have been prevented by responsible gun owners. Teenagers - especially troubled ones - should not have free and easy access to guns.

I posted data on the 10 worst mass casualty shootings a few days back. Only 1 out of 11 shooters was taking prescription meds. Most of them did have some type of psychological problem, although some were diagnosed after the fact. More often, the shooters were actually not taking their prescription meds. Two were diagnosed as psychopaths and would likely have killed again if they weren't stopped. One had brain tumor as a causative factor.

All in all, the biggest factor they had in common was their familiarity with, and availability of firearms combined with either a phsycological disorder or severe (and sometime perceived) grievance against society. Unless those factors are addressed, these types of crimes will continue to occur. Everything else we can do will be reactive.

Idiots on here will still pretend that all of these killers were on psychotropics! More resources (and the money/taxes to fund them) would help a lot to deal with the mentally ill among us! But you will not find many right wingers who would go that far! They would rather pretend there is some cheap and easy way to do it. There is not!

Like the fact that guns are the primary factor involved in gun violence? It's amazing how much data we have from other countries that actually have decreased gun violence by decreasing the number of guns.

The bottom line is we are not even having the same discussion. People love their guns here in the US. We are not discussing how to decrease gun violence. That solution is obvious. We are discussing how to minimize gun violence in a society that wants guns. Those are two different issues.

Amen!!!

[james&olya 1,121]

I would start with this. The second one sort of based on Canada and Australia but modified since I really don't think there is way to restrict those types of weapons in the US to the extent that they have in other countries.

1) background check on all guns sales

- no guns for history of felony or mental ilness

- extended background check including medical record for anyone with criminal record, restricted prescription drug list, or under age 21.

There is a huge roadblock here. The USA has put a far higher value on an individual's right to privacy on medical and especially mental health issues. That would have to be walked WAY back before this can even begin to happen in any sort of meaningful way!

It SHOULD be done, of course!

Edited December 24, 2012 by james&olya

[james&olya 1,121]

I didnt say you can't do it. It can be done.

I said you can't get it done because of the work involved. There's a difference.

You can't even feed your families without help and breaks and programs and agencies much less build a country.

If you feel insulted at that it is because truth hurts and ain't it a cold hard world.

You are beyond clueless!

[Dakine10 5,452]

He is not. These video games, while popular here, are even more popular in Japan and many western European countries. Their murder rates, individual and mass, are a tiny fraction of ours. They may even serve to allow people to vent their hostilities. I still think they are cr@p but they are not why we have a murder problem.

I agree, mental health issues and access to guns are almost always the main factors in these type of shootings.

I found it interesting since it has came up with the VT shooter and the Aurora shooter. They both played these games online for hours. I'm not suggesting video games made these guys snap. I'm not suggesting at all that it's an area to focus on. I just curious if it played any part in how they reacted after they snapped.

[himher 634]

Am I? Clueless?

Try getting into your representatives office in Washington without getting through the armed guards (armed with guess what, guns). Your representatives sure aren't clueless but they think you are

You are beyond clueless!

[james&olya 1,121]

Try getting into your representatives office in Washington without getting through the armed guards (armed with guess what, guns).

I have no problem with that. I appreciate the need to have the guards there. I also don't mind having armed police at every elementary, middle, and high school. It will cost money. Maybe gun owners and manufacturers should have to pay fees into a gun victims compensation fund! I don't think that would require amending the constitution.

[decocker 7,198]

NOW: Get to work. Fight hard for what you believe in.

Except I've never even read or heard a rumor about a liberal who got anything done through hard work. People who cant and won't protect their own children aren't much of a threat to people who can and will protect their own rights and property anyway.

My opinion. I think if you don't pick up a weapon, train on it, and use it to defend your area of your community you should be taxed, have to send a letter of irresponsible cowardice to all of your neighbors just like a child molester does, and have to pay a fee for the right to shirk your duty to your community

good luck getting folks on board with your battle cry sitting atop your high horse. why do you think you get to tell another american that they have to own and use a gun? your citizenship doesn't trump mine. a non gun owner compares to a child molester? ha ha good luck regaining some semblance of credibility.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

The unifying theme in all of these shootings is a psychologically impaired person(s), an outcast, on psychotropic drugs. Val erie has a good citation on that.

Can anyone name one single example of a popular, well-adjusted and drug-free kid, video game enthusiast, that suddenly murdered a bunch of school kids? There is no example of that, ever. It has nothing to do with video games. Before that it was cowboys and indians, etc. Video games? I had guns and shot animals as a kid and so did most of my friends. Even shooting living things with real guns doesn't result in mass shootings.

The only thing missing is the press headlines saying "another prescription drug murder" and politicians railing about needing to take action on prescription drugs and psychological disorders. How much advertising revenue on TV is from guns? Zero. How much from drug companies? Billions. There is an enormous chasm in print media too, with gun advertising mainly in specialty media, not mainstream news.

The NRA and a few other groups have lobbying efforts but big pharma is way out in front, along with a huge presence in the schools. Over ten million kids are on prescription drugs and in the schools. But nobody can legally take a gun in.

How can it be that everywhere you look it is debate about guns and almost nowhere are drugs and mental disorders seriously discussed as a public policy problem? Pretty obvious to me.

Anything but the guns, right?

How come that kids in Western Europe that watch the same TV shows, play the same video games are exposed to the same pressures as their US counterparts don't go on these rampages? They're less drugged? Yes, they are. But they're still drugged (kid over there is about 35% as likely as a kid over here to be drugged up which has a lot to do with the more attractive profit margins big pharma is making on their medicaions on this side of the pond but that's a different discussion). So, if it's 10 million kids here, it's perhaps 4 million kids there (Western Europe has a larger population than the US).

They have 40% of the drugged kids that we do. Do they have 40% of the gun violence perpetrated by drugged kids going on over there? No. Why? Well, you know why.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Most of us "get" that taking someone off their psychotropic drugs can lead to catastrophic results, and we are including that in our proof that it is psychologically impaired people on psychotropic drugs that is by far, far and away the most consistent theme in these shootings.

Wrong. The only truly consistent theme in these shootings is that people who should not ever have access to firearms of any sort have easy and ready access to firearms specifically designed for maximimum killing capacity. Another consistent theme - far more consistent than the involvement of any drugs - is that these fireams were not obtained in some dark back alley. These are by far the most consistent themes and these must be addressed effectively in order to save lives.

The NRA talking points you and other gun nuts are trying to sell here are smoke and mirrors designed to mask the actual issue at hand.

Edited December 26, 2012 by Mr. Big Dog

[Teddy B 17,252]

Wrong. The only truly consistent theme in these shootings is that people who should not ever have access to firearms of any sort have easy and ready access to firearms specifically designed for maximimum killing capacity. Another consistent theme - far more consistent than the involvement of any drugs - is that these fireams were not obtained in some dark back alley. These are by far the most consistent themes and these must be addressed effectively in order to save lives.

The NRA talking points you and other gun nuts are trying to sell here are smoke and mirrors designed to mask the actual issue at hand.

With the countless number of threads on this board about this issue and the even more countless number of posts, not one gun nut has been able to disprove this, and they never will.

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Anything but the guns, right?

How come that kids in Western Europe that watch the same TV shows, play the same video games are exposed to the same pressures as their US counterparts don't go on these rampages? They're less drugged? Yes, they are. But they're still drugged (kid over there is about 35% as likely as a kid over here to be drugged up which has a lot to do with the more attractive profit margins big pharma is making on their medicaions on this side of the pond but that's a different discussion). So, if it's 10 million kids here, it's perhaps 4 million kids there (Western Europe has a larger population than the US).

They have 40% of the drugged kids that we do. Do they have 40% of the gun violence perpetrated by drugged kids going on over there? No. Why? Well, you know why.

Actually it's more simple than that. I spent three years living in Germany, and while you are spot on in regards to gun violence, there are some key differences between here and Europe:

At least where I was stationed, I can't speak for the entire country, but in Germany specifically, they don't glorify violence on TV like here in the states. Their interest lies in "human reproduction" more than anything. I've seen commercials that were worse than most adult films here. Same thing with guns, I remember flying into Frankfurt for the first time, the guards there all had automatic weapons. But you don't see games like GTA in heavy rotation. Also there isn't this good guys vs bad guys with guns attitude that we have here. Look at the majority people on here fighting for gun rights, how many people here actually live in a bad part of their city where they need a gun for protection? A recent study shows that most of the people that have guns don't have them for protection, it's more for bragging rights and intimidation.