Father would not give up K2

[Laser1 63]

... so perhaps in the alternative consider coming to some sort of deal where the child can return to visit the father for a few months every year or two.

Good idea. Offer to have the child spend summers or Christmas with the father... even if it is not legally required.

[beejay 123]

Some years ago when I had a blooming relationship with a woman in Thailand I heard this same exact response.

I was speaking specifically about Philippine law not Thai law. Someone posted the article that pertains to this in the Philippine Family code I suggest you take a look at it.

[Caryh 5,206]

I find it interesting how most everyone here supports the mother taking the child away from its father when its the child coming to the USA. Yet there is a total reversal of attitudes when a divorced Filipina runs back home to the Philippines with a child she had with an American. The father is involved in this child's life. This matters a lot, and some form of agreement needs to be worked out regardless of her ability to leave the country with their daughter.

[Hank_ 9,174]

Thing you have to think about is that the mother in the Philippines has COMPLETE custody of the child so it isn't really so much about opinion (at least in my case) as reality. And ya in this case it would be nice to have a workable arrangement, but the commute would be a muther.

[Artisan 138]

Thing you have to think about is that the mother in the Philippines has COMPLETE custody of the child so it isn't really so much about opinion (at least in my case) as reality. And ya in this case it would be nice to have a workable arrangement, but the commute would be a muther.

Having complete custody and denying the father his constitutional rights to visitation are two separate things. Yes, the mother can take the child from the Philippines with the assistance of the US government. However what she is doing is sacrificing any life she or her children ( prior to their 18th birthday) may have if they return to the Philippines. It's not uncommon at all for a well respected married man (the father in the OP) to have far more influence in the local community than the mother of an illegitimate child. That translates into hardship for the mother's family if the father wants to rock the boat (which it likely what would happen in this case).

Heaven forbid the father or one of his family members is a Barangay Captain or local official, even worse if they are a member of the local police or militia. I read news reports in the paper here in Manila daily of domestic troubles over visitation and custody that have led to violence and other civil troubles. We are so used to living in the US where your neighbors and their opinions of you don't mean squat and how your reputation is rarely tied to that of your extended family. Here in the Philippines, being blacklisted or harassed by your neighbors because of someone related to you can mean not having a job, being able to eat the next day, or losing access to education. Does the OP's fiance really want to risk the possibility of consequences for her family?

Any American male that takes up with a woman that is so willing to sever a close familial bond had best know he's taking up with a woman that would no doubt do the same thing to him given the opportunity.

[GaryKO 49]

Having complete custody and denying the father his constitutional rights to visitation are two separate things. Yes, the mother can take the child from the Philippines with the assistance of the US government. However what she is doing is sacrificing any life she or her children ( prior to their 18th birthday) may have if they return to the Philippines. It's not uncommon at all for a well respected married man (the father in the OP) to have far more influence in the local community than the mother of an illegitimate child. That translates into hardship for the mother's family if the father wants to rock the boat (which it likely what would happen in this case).

Heaven forbid the father or one of his family members is a Barangay Captain or local official, even worse if they are a member of the local police or militia. I read news reports in the paper here in Manila daily of domestic troubles over visitation and custody that have led to violence and other civil troubles. We are so used to living in the US where your neighbors and their opinions of you don't mean squat and how your reputation is rarely tied to that of your extended family. Here in the Philippines, being blacklisted or harassed by your neighbors because of someone related to you can mean not having a job, being able to eat the next day, or losing access to education. Does the OP's fiance really want to risk the possibility of consequences for her family?

Any American male that takes up with a woman that is so willing to sever a close familial bond had best know he's taking up with a woman that would no doubt do the same thing to him given the opportunity.

You sure do come up with some wild assumptions based on very little information!

The OP is planning to file a K2 visa for his fiancee daughter, the biological father does not want the child to go to the US with her mother. The OP asks.... "What's our recourse?"

The correct answer is: Your fiancee does not need the biological father permission to file a K2 visa, or his consent for the mother to take the child out of the Philippines. Do what your doing, try to convince him that his daughters place is with her mother, and the both of them would have a better chance for a good life in the US.

The OP said "They take turns taking care of the baby." He did not say the father is helping to support the child, or the father is providing money for food, shelter, clothing, medical attendance, education and transportation in keeping with the financial capacity of the family. He probably keeps the baby while the mother works and he sits at home all day and drinks tanduay all day! Yeah I can make some wild assumptions also.

This is the way the fathers constitutional rights to visitation works. It's up the the mother and father of the child to come to a agreement on what visitation will be, and with that comes the duty of the father to provide support for the child. "No support then no visitation". If they cannot come to a written agreement on visitation and support then the father would need to ask the court to decide. The court will allow visitation unless the father if found to be unfit, but they will also order support for the child. I applaud the OP's fiancee for allowing the father to have contact with his daughter, most unwed mothers don't allow this, they end all contact with the former boyfriend.

I know several single moms in the Philippines, my wife's older sister is one. Believe me it's not easy. Try supporting yourself and a baby on 10,000 PHP a month. To shame a mother for wanting a better life for herself and her baby is shameful. I'm proud of the OP that he is willing to accept his fiancee as being a single mom, and be willing to provide her and the daughter with a family style life, and give them both more opportunity than they would have in a poor country.

Some of you either think that the OP fiancee should leave the daughter in the Philippines, or that the OP should look for another woman that does not have kids, that I find remarkable!

As for anyone being blacklisted most times it is the man who has to leave the area for his own safety, if he does not step up to the plate and give his support, and do the right thing. Having a baby out of wedlock sometimes screws up both peoples lives, but with strong family support things seem to work out in the end. What is important is the mother and child they have the hardest row to hoe, the man.....well he will probably get another girl pregnant, and maybe even get married one day. Maybe he will learn some day if he wants kids then get married and have some.....

[emilioako 1]

Thank you for the overwhelming responses. But the fact is that the child is with her father physically and would not give it up to the rightful mother. And after learning that the mother is being petitioned by me to the the U.S. the father is more than adamant as to wanting the baby left to him so that we could send child support payment. Clearly the intentions of the father is to use the baby as pawn for nothing more than financial gain. (He does not have a job, irresponsible, etc) this according to my fiancee.

So after some research, we think we know what to do next:

File a barangay protection order based on R.A 9262 (section 5) - the father's refusal to allow the mother custody. Family Code even states that the mother has full legal capacity and moral responsibility to have full custody.

And maybe have the lawyers involved.

The mother even discussed this whole situation with him, and is well aware that he is on the losing end. But says he will "fight" for his baby.

A parental consent is not needed for a child to travel out of the country as long as the child is accompanied by the biological mother.

[emilioako 1]

I forgot to add some important facts: The father was never near the baby from birth up until the baby nine months. The mother had no choice but to continue work, bring the baby to work to be able to provide. He ever sent anything to cover medical bills/child support. Finally she had talked to the father and that's when he picked up the baby just last month. And after knowing about the fiancee situation this is where suddenly he wants to keep the baby. If only my fiancee had physical custody of the baby, we wouldn't be in this predicament.

[Hank_ 9,174]

So there is not a caring father, just a jobless guy seeing his child as a cash-cow....

Bad idea letting the father take the child so close to the visa application time.

[VanessaTony 3,567]

Thank you for the overwhelming responses. But the fact is that the child is with her father physically and would not give it up to the rightful mother. And after learning that the mother is being petitioned by me to the the U.S. the father is more than adamant as to wanting the baby left to him so that we could send child support payment. Clearly the intentions of the father is to use the baby as pawn for nothing more than financial gain. (He does not have a job, irresponsible, etc) this according to my fiancee.

She should tell him your relationship is off. That you found out that the child couldn't come and dumped them. Once she has the child back in her physical custody, she can proceed (quietly) with her visa process.

[Artisan 138]

"No support then no visitation"

You seriously need to do better research.

The right to visitation and the duty to pay child support are distinct and separate: The Supreme Court in the case of David v. Court of Appeals (G.R. No. 115821, 13 October 1999, 316 SCRA 710) held that the recognition of an illegitimate child by the father could be a ground for ordering the latter to give support to, but not custody of, the child. In other terms, the right to visitation and the duty to pay child support are distinct and separate.

According to Atty. Christine Florido of Philippine Legal Counseling:

Legally, the right to visitation and the duty to pay child support are distinct and separate. This means only one thing: if the other parent refuses visitation, your recourse is not to suspend child support payment, but to enforce your visitation order or agreement in court via a contempt motion. Conversely, a mother who has not been regularly receiving the child support payment from the errant parent cannot legally prevent the deadbeat dad from seeing his child by that reason alone. Child support payment is not a rental fee for the time spent with the child. Visitation is the right of the child to bond with the other parent, and it has nothing to do with child support. The appropriate remedy of the mother is to allow access to the child, but to go back to court for the violation of the support agreement.

Try supporting yourself and a baby on 10,000 PHP a month.

My sister-in-law supports herself, her son, Mama, Papa, and Lola on less in the province. People learn to make due with what they have and work hard to stretch those resources to their limits.

give them both more opportunity than they would have in a poor country.

This attitude of living in the US as being superior to living in the Philippines is beyond racist. It is untrue. The lifestyles between the two are different but one is not superior to the other. There is just as much, if not more, opportunity for the young woman to succeed if her kano boyfriend moved to the Philippines. There are plenty of people that live in the Philippines as well as, or even better than, many middle-class and affluent families do in the US. A foreign woman in the US has to deal with language barriers, racism, and our rather anti-immigrant society; All of which makes it more difficult for her to succeed outside the home until she acclimates or moves to a community that is atypical of normal American culture.

(He does not have a job, irresponsible, etc)

I don't believe I have ever met a woman that didn't claim an ex was anything but a deadbeat, especially when she's talking about him to her new beau. How about you actually do some legwork and hire a local private investigator (a common job here for expats by the way) to find out the truth behind the father's status and financial situation.

She should tell him your relationship is off. That you found out that the child couldn't come and dumped them. Once she has the child back in her physical custody, she can proceed (quietly) with her visa process.

How likely is it that this woman doesn't have friends and family that are going to gossip about her kano boyfriend and her future move? I wonder just how the posters on this board would feel if the advice they give just ends up getting this poor woman beaten or killed. Women are murdered here in Manila for far less and the people responsible get away scott-free. A unmarried mother has about the lowest social status of anyone in the Philippines. I've witnessed homeless men treated with better respect. No one is going to come to her aid if something goes wrong without a lot of money being used to buy the influence required. Is the OP ready to start paying for legal bills to get the courts and local officials involved?

In the end, what matters is that, yes, the women can legally move the child outside of the Philippines with the help of the US government providing a visa. The woman has to accept though that she does so at a risk to herself and her child if she ever returns to the Philippines and opens her family up to reprisals, all depending on the resources, tenacity, and spite the father holds over the mother. The OP has to consider all of the legal, financial, and moral implications involved in severing a father from his daughter regardless of legitimacy. I honestly question the veracity of the responses given in this thread if the situations were reversed and a woman wanted to take her daughter from the US and separate a father from his flesh and blood. I find the awful pro-American/anti-Philippine bent on this forum rather disgusting at times.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Artisan

[N-o-l-a 7,167]

I forgot to add some important facts: The father was never near the baby from birth up until the baby nine months. The mother had no choice but to continue work, bring the baby to work to be able to provide. He ever sent anything to cover medical bills/child support. Finally she had talked to the father and that's when he picked up the baby just last month. And after knowing about the fiancee situation this is where suddenly he wants to keep the baby. If only my fiancee had physical custody of the baby, we wouldn't be in this predicament.

So offer to buy his cooperation and parental rights off with cash. If he accepts, then he doesn't care about the kid and you can proceed with a clean conscience. If he doesn't, then well... I guess you'll have to cross that bridge when you come to it.

I told my ex-husband that if he left us in relative peace that my husband would adopt our daughter and he wouldn't have to pay child support anymore. He jumped on that because he could care less about his biological daughter.

Hey, it is worth a try if you really buy what she is selling you about him.

[GaryKO 49]

You seriously need to do better research.

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According to Atty. Christine Florido of Philippine Legal Counseling:

My sister-in-law supports herself, her son, Mama, Papa, and Lola on less in the province. People learn to make due with what they have and work hard to stretch those resources to their limits.

This attitude of living in the US as being superior to living in the Philippines is beyond racist. It is untrue. The lifestyles between the two are different but one is not superior to the other. There is just as much, if not more, opportunity for the young woman to succeed if her kano boyfriend moved to the Philippines. There are plenty of people that live in the Philippines as well as, or even better than, many middle-class and affluent families do in the US. A foreign woman in the US has to deal with language barriers, racism, and our rather anti-immigrant society; All of which makes it more difficult for her to succeed outside the home until she acclimates or moves to a community that is atypical of normal American culture.

I don't believe I have ever met a woman that didn't claim an ex was anything but a deadbeat, especially when she's talking about him to her new beau. How about you actually do some legwork and hire a local private investigator (a common job here for expats by the way) to find out the truth behind the father's status and financial situation.

How likely is it that this woman doesn't have friends and family that are going to gossip about her kano boyfriend and her future move? I wonder just how the posters on this board would feel if the advice they give just ends up getting this poor woman beaten or killed. Women are murdered here in Manila for far less and the people responsible get away scott-free. A unmarried mother has about the lowest social status of anyone in the Philippines. I've witnessed homeless men treated with better respect. No one is going to come to her aid if something goes wrong without a lot of money being used to buy the influence required. Is the OP ready to start paying for legal bills to get the courts and local officials involved?

In the end, what matters is that, yes, the women can legally move the child outside of the Philippines with the help of the US government providing a visa. The woman has to accept though that she does so at a risk to herself and her child if she ever returns to the Philippines and opens her family up to reprisals, all depending on the resources, tenacity, and spite the father holds over the mother. The OP has to consider all of the legal, financial, and moral implications involved in severing a father from his daughter regardless of legitimacy. I honestly question the veracity of the responses given in this thread if the situations were reversed and a woman wanted to take her daughter from the US and separate a father from his flesh and blood. I find the awful pro-American/anti-Philippine bent on this forum rather disgusting at times.

I lived in the Philippines for about 4 years I know a little bit . The civil court system is for those who can afford it, most cannot. This father clearly cannot afford to go to court and prove he is the father of the child to get visitation rights, and the woman cannot afford to file suit for support. So that is how the system works for poor people. They agree on visitation and support or they do not.

The way I look at things is, if a father wants to be a part of his kids born out of wedlock life then be the father needs to help support those kids, if he is not willing to do that then he is not much of a father, the mother would be correct in keeping her kids away from a low life like that.

My wife has a 4 year college degree and was a elementary school teacher in the PH making $4800.00 a year, in the US she is going to school to get her teaching certificate here, she has a job as a pre-school kindergarten teacher and she now makes about $20k a year. Talk to her about opportunity in the Philippines.

[Mogambi 96]

Offer him a one time cash payment to give up the kid, explaining that otherwise you'll get a Barangay order, and he'll get nothing at all. If he's in it for the cash, he'll take the money.

[Artisan 138]

Well again you been reading the internet and don't understand how things work there.

I do know how things work here in regards to family law. The OP acknowledged the child is illegitimate and recognized by the father on the NSO records.

I still am amazed that any man could attempt to defend what the OP is trying to do with another man's child. If it was your own child you'd be on this forum screaming until your were blue in the face that your rights as a father were going to be violated.